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Nick, Ofelia and the United States/Mexico Border

Discussion in 'Episode 215 - North' started by BlackLightning, Oct 3, 2016.

  1. Neuropyramidal

    Neuropyramidal Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't think they knew about the half oxy. They were upset with Nick for not being on time. Francisco, who I mentioned, is the father of that family of three. It was mentioned somewhere that they had expected Nick 'hours ago'. And in the season finale, Marco told Nick he liked Nick because he was the only white guy he knew who had 'nothing to hide'. Marco wouldn't describe Nick as having 'nothing to hide' if he knew about the half-oxy.

    Marco demanded to know from Francisco 'where is the oxy???" He didn't mention he knew the previous batch was faulty.

    So, we can't blame Nick for the attack on Colonia.
     
  2. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    Tightly controlled borders are features in many Western and non-Western countries and have nothing to do with racism.

    However... in this situation, borders no longer exist. So I think what you have are minute men style militia survivors, which there are people who patrol the border in their free time like Arizona Border Recon(some little scrappy paramilitary volunteer group)and they'd likely still just be protecting their territory.
     
  3. Camilleyun

    Camilleyun Well-Known Member

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    I should have included the post I was responding to in my post:

    I don't understand where this perspective is coming from, and I disagree based on what we know up to this point.
     
  4. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    Oh. Well yeah, there's no evidence for that assertion.

    Still, I don't think it's traditional military that Nick and co. ran into. Just straggler militia remnants with maybe a few military people. Going on what I know of the southern border and the fact that the show clearly displayed the military command breaking down entirely.
     
  5. BlackLightning

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    Yeah, of course there is no evidence for that assertion. It's a prediction. I'm sorry that it came off as an statement...but...it's a very possible prediction.

    If art truly imitates life, then it's not hard to imagine that people would blame other people for bringing decrepit man-eating monsters into their communities.

    Think about it: in real life, there are people who treat people sick with the common cold as if they have the plague. Remember the whole Bird Flu/Swine Flu/Mad Cow Disease/whatever else debacle? The concerns people had about the Zika virus leading up to and during the Olympics?

    And then if we look at history, there are cities in Europe (I think it's in Scotland) that have neighborhoods specifically built to keep the plague-infested populations separate from the healthy population.

    So it's not unreasonable to predict that there are people in FTWD who blame other people for the zombie apocalypse. Especially if those people are "poor," if they don't look like them, if they are from a different country they don't know about and if they don't speak the same language.

    Why can't we have an zombie apocalypse story that deals questions of nationality/race/ethnicity, mass hysteria and finger-pointing amongst the common people?

    Besides, believe it or not, there are people who live in border states who have some legitimate concerns about certain types of people being able to cross the border. On both sides.
     
  6. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    Yes but the level of plausibility in this is cancelled out by the fact that everything on everybody's side has melted down. There's no plague or virus to keep out. Unless it's specifically stated that the Wildfire virus started in Mexico/Central America, then there's no reason that the group at the border would be hostile to them for that purpose.

    They're hostile to them just like any group is hostile to any other group they don't know in the TWD universe because there's no law and everyone is out to get you potentially.

    Because when society collapses and most living humans are dead, which we're dealing with a 5000/1 ratio of walker/human, in group preference then shifts to any non-hostile humans you can band together with. We see in group preference between rival groups in TWD universe in every season and that in effect turns into the instinctual tribalism, rather than social construct lines like ethnic and national bias.

    If they showed the ZA breakdown in truly less developed places, it could be interesting and have factors like this -- especially in Africa with active rival tribalism and violence extending from that. Phillipines, etc.... We're focused on North America though and North America that's completely collapsed now a month in.

    The last thing I want to see is a PC SJW version of Walking Dead trumping up sensationalized racial bias.

    Mexico is a very corrupt country(every country is) with a huge narco-terrorist element near the border, that's where all modern concerns stem from on both sides.

    Nation's completely collapsing and the majority of humans wiped out removes that being a primary concern. Your primary concern is now food/shelter and the billions of reanimated corpses trying to eat you.
     
  7. NotDeanna

    NotDeanna New Member

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    I think we can. On Nick's first visit to the supermarket when he stole the candy bar, he and Luci were pushing the shopping carts home when she said they were being followed for the first time because Nick brought attention to them. Later there's a scene with some of Marco's guys viewing the Colonia through binoculars, followed by Marco saying they were leaving because they had found a "fortress." Regardless of the cut oxy issue, Nick focused Marco's attention on the Colonia.
    Rule One of the ZA: If you have anything worthwhile, never let anyone else know about it or they will try to take it from you.
     
  8. mistertrouble189

    mistertrouble189 Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, I think that lone soldier and the border soldiers may be connected somehow.

    "But with the introduction of that group -- and they are not military, we'll get a better sense of who they are as we move into Season 3, as well as their connection to Dayton Callie's character, because that scene between him and Ofelia is a bit further to the east, but there is some connective tissue between him and the militia group that confronts us at the border crossing -- I think it's unavoidable." http://www.tvguide.com/news/fear-the-walking-dead-dave-erickson-season-2-finale/?rss=breakingnews
     
  9. Neuropyramidal

    Neuropyramidal Well-Known Member

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    Nah, it doesn't make much sense to say that the initial encounter with Nick lead to their interest in Colonia, which they knew prior to that was a safe zone. Luci thought they could be followed, but they apparently didn't get followed, because Marco didn't find out where Colonia was at that point, even though it was just two people pushing shopping carts. The big catalyst for their anger toward Colonia was the no-show for the trade. After that, the real motivation for Marco invading Colonia came when his gang-enemy agreed to be his friend in trade for a safe 'fortress'.
     
    #29 Neuropyramidal, Oct 4, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2016
  10. BlackLightning

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    So what if the wildfire virus was rumored to have started in Central America or in Mexico? What if most hordes that appeared in the United States (at least from their perspective) came north across the southern border?

    It doesn't have to be true. Because if those people who attacked Nick and Luci believed it, then...

    The reason why I am pushing this is based on the way Nick, Luciana and the people from the colonia were treated by the guys who ambushed them.

    If it wasn't clear that they weren't walkers before they fired (i.e. they were carrying bags and small children), it was painfully obvious when they ran for their lives screaming and the way some of them had reacted after being shot.

    Also, they were chasing and firing on the people who were running away. And then dragged Nick and Luci out from their hiding place and slammed them on the ground.

    I understand people are wary or even hostile towards strangers (especially large groups of strangers). But what happened was not zombie apocalypse stranger-danger. That was a massacre.

    I think you're operating under the assumption that society has completely collapsed and most living humans are dead. It's still early on. How long has it been? Two months? Three tops? Sure, there are going to be a lot of dead people. But there are still a lot of people who aren't dead yet.

    At the beginning of the season, people were still listening for radio broadcasts and groups of people had taken to the seas. You still had large groups of people living in Mexico: groups of people who were doing well I might add if it had not been for the group.

    Remember that we saw semi-organized platoons of soldiers up until season 3. And that was what? A year in the apocalypse. Only the big cities and metropolitan areas were bombed via Operation Cobalt. And judging from the fact that Tijuana hadn't been firebombed to hell and littered with walking corpses, the Mexican military didn't make the same decision.

    At this stage in the game, there are people still alive whose primary concerns are not food/shelter and flesh-eating dead people.
     
  11. BlackLightning

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    Okay, so I think you may be right about them being mad about the oxy thing.

    HOWEVER...

    ...Marco and the narcos kidnapped that family for information on the colonia and Nick before the trade was due. Nick and Luci wanted to go make the trade later that day as scheduled. Alejandro wisely said no.

    Why were they upset before Nick could even go out and make the trade?

    As for the part Nick played the fall of the colonia...dude, both Luciana and Alejandro were very upset at Nick after the stunt he pulled with the bon-bon cake.

    Why?

    Because they said he had compromised the community. In fact, his half-oxy, half-powdered milk idea was his way of making it up to Alejandro.

    Before Nick, nobody cared who they were, where they live or what they did as long as they benefited from whatever trade they wanted to make. Notice how they left Madison, Elena and the hotel people alone? And the other people who they were trading with?

    Marco didn't find out because Luci and Nick took a different, more convulted way back.
     
  12. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    Because there's no evidence of that being in the story line.

    Where in TWD universe is it notable behavior when one group is initially hostile to a group coming up on them that they don't know? This is ultra common behavior between the two shows and comic books in this fictional universe.

    I think you're seriously over selling the intensity of the skirmish. Common place stuff in TWD and the body count wasn't that high. If you've got an area semi-secure and you're a group that's either military or paramilitary and a large group of people are rolling up into your area with weapons that you don't know anything about, then this was business as usual. They didn't kill Nick and Luci and are obviously taking them in alive and we'll find out more.

    The military remnant/border guys there could have had that location secure and could have been dealing with fleeing militarized Cartel gang members for the last few weeks like Marco's group. Or just any hostile miscreants in general from all angles..... like you see in regular TWD.

    It's a little over a month. Society completely collapsing within that time frame is 100% confirmed in both series. There's more people alive of course than 2 years in where TWD is, but there's zero law and order and the vast majority of people have been wiped out. Everything we've seen in both shows during the first few months time frame confirms that to the exact.

    Yes, that was at the start of the global meltdown when the military was still blasting out the cities. Even at that point, society and military command had already been shown to be fragmented and rapidly breaking down at the end of S1. There were more walkers than people in Los Angeles at the end of S1 and most buildings shown on screen were already abandoned. Prior to the military bombarding the city in S2 episode 1, you saw LA and the streets empty and in partial ruin.

    You had survivor remnants of military in S3 with no higher command structure. That's no longer organized platoons with a mission, that's ex-military guys surviving together and using their obviously useful military equipment.

    A month out from the global meltdown and any group's plans are secure shelter/compound/food/resources and keeping the dead and hostile humans away and that's their plan in the short and long term. I don't know how anybody could think or argue otherwise when that's exactly what's been shown on screen and print within this fictional universe.

    You're coming up with a hypothesis that does not exist within the structural canon of the fiction.

    The US as an institution is done by this point, no survivor elements of any kind are worried about keeping Nationalist lines going. They're worried about keeping human and undead threat to their health away from them.
     
  13. Zvivor

    Zvivor Well-Known Member

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    Why (I mean, what about his attitude made you angry?
     
  14. Zvivor

    Zvivor Well-Known Member

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    One thing that was startling was the ineptness of Marco and the Narcos in invading Colonia. Come on -- all those weapons and they can't figure out how to safely invade the place or climb up on roofs or smear themselves with infected blood? I'm glad they're all dead -- but just saying. Seems like Colonianistas could return now, with a little creative effort put into rounding up "the wall" again. And somewhere out there nearby, there ought to be Marco's trucks full of water, groceries, etc.
     
  15. Neuropyramidal

    Neuropyramidal Well-Known Member

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    Does that really make sense to you though? That two people pushing shopping carts through rubble were able to lose the trail of the Pelicano scouts just by taking some unexpected turns? Especially when you consider the fact that Nick made ANOTHER trade with the Pelicano's after that one, which went perfectly smoothly. We didn't see that trade on screen but we heard Nick tell Alejandro about it. He said everything went perfectly, and everyone was happy. So apparently 2 people pushing shopping carts managed to lose their trail TWICE lol. Nah, the logical answer is that no one actually bothered to follow them. Because at that point they didn't want to.

    What actually happened was that Francisco was the usual scout that the Pelicano's recognized. So when they caught him out sneaking around, the day the trade was suppose to be made, and without the oxy [he was screaming "where's the oxy??"] he started to think something fishy was up. He took them in. Then, combined with that, Nick didn't make it to the actual trade appointment that same day [Alejandro's fault], which compounded his suspicions that something tricky was up. That's why he was angry and ranting when Madison was there, and that's when things went to shit. It fits perfectly.

    Remember, Nick had another 'smooth' transaction after his initial one where things went fine.

    So, once again, we still can't blame Nick for the attack.
     
  16. QuantumCurt

    QuantumCurt Member

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    I don't know, I'm pretty sure The Donald himself is going to become a main character starting next season.
     
  17. Poppy

    Poppy Member

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    When Nick made his first trip with Luci, she delivered guns knives, and then a plastic bag.

    What was in that plastic bag?
    Was it Oxycontin?

    I ask, because I wonder were they already dealing/trading drugs, specifically oxy, OR did Nick bring attention to themselves by offering Oxy, in trade for his hands/life? And then add into the bargain another cart of water.
     
  18. Neuropyramidal

    Neuropyramidal Well-Known Member

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    They were already delivering Oxy. That was what was in the white bag. After Nick was caught stealing, he said "if you don't let me go, we'll take our business elsewhere. No more Oxy. Your sister will go through withdrawal". Something along those lines.
     
  19. EZD

    EZD Well-Known Member

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    I don't think they delivered Guns and Knoves,they were just laying down their arms before entering the gangs place.
    They picked them back up on the way out and had them after that.

    They were there to trade the Drugs for the Carts of goodies all along.
     
  20. EZD

    EZD Well-Known Member

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    I am sure he would be the bestest survivor of all time too!
     

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