Decisions like Plessey, were harmful and regressive but were eventually overturned as society’s opinions evolved over time.
I believe that allowing women control over their reproductive rights are essential for to them to take full control of their lives.
States now will decide on whether or not to allow women within their borders to continue to be in charge of the decision to become a mother, I continue to hope that Dobbs will be overturned in the future as were some of those early decisions but am happy to reside in a state that trusts women enough to make the right choice for themselves.

The SC’s decisions, based on their interpretation, in effect becomes law.

Viability is the ability of the fetus to survive outside of the mother’s womb. What the SC of ‘73 tried to do was to wield the wisdom of Solomon, by recognizing elements of both sides of the issue. If the fetus could not survive on it’s own, the state had no intent to violate the privacy of what was in a woman’s uterus until the developing child reached a stage that the state had a stake in protecting a very real potential life. Until then the rights of the already living and breathing human being, the mother, took precedent.

If the language of the original document is somewhat vague, and times change, can we even definitely always know for certain what the “original intent” was 300 yrs later? As we’ve discussed, decisions have been overturned so the original intent wasn’t written in stone.

Creating a constitutional amendment to address abortion may protect it from the SC but it can be stuck down never the less.

Including the first 10 amendments, the Bill of Rights, which were ratified in 1789, the Senate historian estimates that approximately 11,699 amendment changes have been proposed in Congress through 2016. Only one amendment, the 18th Amendment that established Prohibition, was later repealed by the states.
https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/what-does-it-take-to-repeal-a-constitutional-amendment

Yes, things may settle as long as there are states where women can go to get abortions after making the decision to do so.

What kind of lawyer is that? LOL. Suing your doctor can be tricky unless real harm can be demonstrated. A number of really good lawyers in private practice, much like doctors, locate where the money is, and you better be prepared to pay through the nose. I do believe however, there are good lawyers in small towns but unless there’s a good chance of success they may decline to take a case. Contingency is a financial risk for them as well as the client.

See the above answer. Prohibition was a constitutional amendment that was repealed although not by the SC.

We’ll see won’t we. How many women will rush to a hospital if their efforts at self abortion go awry, if they know they will be prosecuted? With legalized abortion, the procedure can be done safely, in sterile medical facilities with knowledgeable doctors.

From your last cited article:

There is one certainty in this issue-that controversy about abortion will continue. It is unlikely that practices, policies, and laws will become more permissive than they were in the years immediately following the Supreme Court decisions of 1973; it seems much more likely that the practice of abortion will be restricted. Such restrictions will have important implications for public health; however, these restrictions are likely to have a moral rather than a health rational.

Deaths attributed to abortion made up almost 20% of deaths reported in pregnant women during the 194Os. Now they make up fewer than 10% of all deaths that occur during pregnancy.

The decline in abortion-related deaths since 1972 is striking (Figures 6 and 7). Examination of the deaths from legally induced, illegally induced, and spontaneous abortions separately, as has been done in Figure 7, illustrates the reasons for this decrease. Illegal abortions have had the most striking decline. In 1972, 39 deaths from this cause were reported to CDC; by 1979, despite repeated inquiry of all known sources, no illegal abortions deaths were found. This change has been associated in time with the in creased availability of safe, legal abortions that has followed the Supreme Court decisions. Most legal, induced abortions are substitutes for less-safe, illegal abortions. This substitution effect accounts for the dramatic impact that the Supreme Court decisions have had on mortality from abortion.

 

Not state law yet but if the Idaho GOP gets their way it will be. Stay tuned.It’s early yet. If it indeed happens , you’ll get the Margaret Atwood, I told you so gif.

 

I wish I could have hit more than one rating for this post! You make some very good points, especially concerning the economic impact of having more children than women want. Not enough is said about how this will adversely effect women’s ability to work. Child care in this country is abysmal to begin with, and the cost of raising a child today? It will be disastrous for some families if they are unable to secure a desired abortion in a neighboring state.

*Oh, I loved “third world American state”, so much so I’ll probably appropriate it when talking with others in RL, but I’ll tell them where I heard it first, lol

 

Well, let’s review that third trimester wording:

• During the third trimester of pregnancy, the state's interest in protecting the potential human life outweighs the right to privacy. As a result, the state may prohibit abortions unless an abortion is necessary to save the life or health of the pregnant person.

So you weren’t supposed to be able to get an abortion in the third trimester unless it was to save the life or health of the mother. Again, they put the living, breathing, productive adult (with the potential to have another child) over the infant if it meant a maternal death or serious health issue. With good prenatal care a doctor should be able to head this off, but not always.

I personally am acquainted with a woman who lost her baby close to delivery due to issues with preeclampsia which led to a placental abruption and the loss of the child. Fortunately mom was saved. I’m only telling you this to demonstrate that even with modern medical treatment, serious issues can arise in which the unborn child will be lost at a later stage due to natural causes.

Difficult but NOT impossible.

I don’t think I know who Jacoby and Meyers are but Michael Avenanti for sure! Lol

Perhaps you missed the point. There were still women dying from illegal abortions in 1972. Women cannot write their own prescriptions for antibiotics nor likely be equipped to handle hemorrhage. Your cited article stated:

“ In 1972, 39 deaths from this cause were reported to CDC; by 1979, despite repeated inquiry of all known sources, no illegal abortions deaths were found.”

Why?

With the passage of Roe, they went to the hospital or other health clinic where maternal death was greatly reduced. One more time from your cited article:
“This change has been associated in time with the in creased availability of safe, legal abortions that has followed the Supreme Court decisions. Most legal, induced abortions are substitutes for less-safe, illegal abortions.”


Yes, some mothers will die from pregnancy or childbirth complications no matter what. Some might die from complications of abortion. That the “child’s” death rate from abortion is 100% is kinda the whole idea, but it takes many months before a group of dividing cells becomes a full term fetus ready to take it’s first breath on it’s own, after a journey down the birth canal.

Making it easier for women to prevent pregnancy altogether or to end it at the earliest possible point allows that every child eventually born is wanted.

 

First off, I’d ask you to which Gov. Cuomo you’re referring, but I realize you actually know very little about NY in general except what you read on the internet. Be careful of misinformation. You are mistaken in the belief that a woman in NY can receive an abortion FOR ANY REASON until birth.
From a fact checking article:

We rate the claim in the Facebook post as PARTLY FALSE, based on our research. While it is true that New York's abortion law allows procedures after 24 weeks, there are rules guiding that procedure: if the fetus is not viable or if the health or life of the mother is at risk. If medical practitioners determine that either of these factors are present, the mother can choose to have an abortion.

New York's Reproductive Health Act allows practitioners to perform an abortion on a patient who is 24 weeks or more away from the start of a pregnancy if the fetus is not viable or the abortion is necessary "to protect the patient's life or health."
The law does not define "health" or viability of a fetus. The determination of these factors must be made by a "health care practitioner licensed, certified, or authorized" under state law, "acting within his or her lawful scope of practice."

It is false to state or imply that any abortion can occur in New York "up until birth" as the social posts claims. That is misleading. Additionally, no state in the U.S. allows abortion "up until birth."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...not-allow-abortion-up-until-birth/3014473001/

This occurred a number of years ago, and I’ve since loss touch with her but as I remember it, there was sadness of course, but she had other older children. They had been looking forward to bringing home another little one but it wasn’t to be. This was when I was still going to church and since she was a better Christian than I, I’m sure she found some solace from her beliefs which in this case was as good a panacea as any.

I had no idea who they were. Must be from down state. What’s of interest in one region of NY is not necessarily of interest to the other regions of which there are many. I get your point here though, there’s bottom feeders everywhere, lol

Here’s the thing with those tables. They can only record those abortions, illegal or legal that are reported. Like the lax reporting and data keeping of current Covid cases, we really don’t know the true numbers so I question how accurate those numbers really are.

Since giving individual states the right to decide for themselves, we can only wait to see what happens. Right now in some states, nothing has been settled as judges block state laws from going into effect, etc.etc. Times have changed and it should be easier for women to gain access to work arounds if they can’t travel to a state where abortions are still legal. I even read some companies are giving their female employees time off and funds if they need to travel outside their state borders.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/abortion-travel-companies-paying-benefits-amazon-starbucks-target/

Look, if women want an abortion early in the game and they keep their mouths shut, no one will know if they’re traveling to Disney World for vacation, as they should tell everyone, or for an abortion if the woman can’t get one where she lives. And DON’T post anything on social media!!! The loose lips sink ships principe is imperative.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Florida

Of course, that’s only one example but demonstrates what can be done by individuals if necessary. Can’t travel? There’s the US mail to the rescue. We will never know the true numbers going forth concerning abortions accomplished but maternal death figures should be easy to track. That’s not something that can be kept secret.

 

Hey, I was just checking you out about the Cuomos, lol. As for your article, let’s just say it didn’t exactly come from a neutral source.

Why refer to medical practitioners as abortionists like that’s the only service they provide. How about Ob-Gyns which are licensed medical doctors for one.

*Abortions in New York can be performed by licensed physicians and some Advanced Practice Clinicians (APCs), including physician assistants, nurse practitioners, and licensed midwives.

These are educated and trained professionals who work with their patients to determine if an abortion is warranted after 24 weeks.

It’s also interesting to note:
*If an attempted abortion results in the birth of a live infant, medical providers are required under state law to provide the necessary care to keep that child alive.

https://nynow.wmht.org/blogs/health/qa-new-yorks-abortion-laws-after-scotus-reversal-of-roe-v-wade/

Here’s something else to consider, the reality of the situation:

https://gothamist.com/news/nys-repr...ed-make-it-easier-get-late-abortions-it-hasnt

 

Space dragons vs. Chinese dragons

Of course it’s a Florida man story

https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/d...aiming-he-was-sent-to-warn-the-government.amp


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Well, I assumed you would try for an article from a neutral source. You reject the findings from some sources I quote and I’m afraid I must return the favor.

Yes, some Ob-Gyn’s perform “late term” abortions but as I understand it they need special training for that type of procedure.

The partial birth abortion you describe in your second paragraph was ruled illegal in 2003.
Public Law No: 108-105 (11/05/2003)
(This measure has not been amended since the Conference Report was filed in the House on September 30, 2003. The summary of that version is repeated here.)

Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003 - Amends the Federal criminal code to prohibit any physician or other individual from knowingly performing a partial-birth abortion, except when necessary to save the life of a mother whose life is endangered by a physical disorder, illness, or injury.

Defines a "partial-birth abortion" as an abortion in which the person performing the abortion: (1) deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the mother's body, or, in the case of a breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the mother's body; and (2) performs the overt act, other than completion of delivery, that kills the partially delivered living fetus.

Authorizes the father, if married to the mother at the time of the abortion, and the maternal grandparents of the fetus, if the mother is under 18 years of age, to obtain specified relief in a civil action, unless the pregnancy resulted from the plaintiff's criminal conduct or the plaintiff consented to the abortion.

Authorizes a defendant accused of an offense under this Act to seek a hearing before the State Medical Board on whether the physician's conduct was necessary to save the life of the mother.

Prohibits the prosecution of a woman upon whom a partial-birth abortion is performed for conspiracy to violate this Act or under provisions regarding punishment as a principal or an accessory or for concealment of a felony.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/108th-congress/senate-bill/3

From another source:
*One method to finesse this challenge – partial-birth abortion, which involved delivering the child into the birth canal up to its shoulders and killing it through vacuuming out its brain and crushing its skull – was banned by Congress in 2003. The ban was upheld by the Supreme Court in Gonzales v. Carhart in 2007.

Late term abortions comprise a very small percentage of all abortions performed. I also read that these later term abortions are done differently now as to make sure the baby is dead before delivery begins by injecting the fetus with potassium chloride or digoxin.

Not nice either but as you suggest it makes sense in some scenarios.

C’mon. You knew all that. Why the inflammatory rhetoric?

I will agree that anyone who has to do any procedures either medical or dental on the public has got to learn to get past the “yuk” factor, and it’s a good thing too. There are quite a few procedures that would make many people feel a little faint if they had to watch or perform them, LOL.

 

Actually I did read your article but I also took note of who was behind it, which explained the content.

Do do you challenge the fact that abortions occurring after 24 weeks comprise only a small number of the total abortions? Why are we even emphasizing this unfortunate situation?

I would think by the third trimester, a woman should have been able to have had the procedure already but apparently there are cases that fall through the cracks or are performed for medical reasons, most notably due to defects of the fetus incompatible with life outside the uterus. I’m not particularly happy about this happening but I’m not going to judge others either. I would also be content if the mother had the infant delivered and they baptized it or whatever the hell they wanted to do and had a burial but I think it’s a private decision that should only be between the mother, her family and their medical practitioner. Above all else, compassion rather than condemnation would be the the way to proceed with all parties as I doubt it’s easy on anyone.

That’s why I’ve always been a big supporter of increased availability and decreased price of contraceptives. It should be mandatory for all insurance carriers to cover it. Accurate sex education should be mandatory for all students out of elementary school with a good dose of societal responsibility added in to the course outline. Morning after pills and early abortion should be easily obtained up to 15 weeks in all states. If they want to parse the rules re abortions after that time, have at it. Some states will allow it and some won’t. It should be easier for women to be able to travel to a state where it’s done still which is about where we’re at right now, except some states, IMO, are going way over board to make it overly cumbersome for their residents.

No woman should be forced to carry a baby she doesn’t want nor a baby be born into a household that finds the child a burden. Abortion has always been with us since the beginning of time. I prefer it to infanticide which is still practiced in some parts of the world but we as a nation have the means to prevent all of this if our country had the national will to prioritize contraception in the first place. We need federal guide lines and Roe was the next best thing.

You’re right that we can’t absorb a glut of unwanted babies economically if for no other reason. And so what if a woman wants to donate her fetal tissue for medical purposes. The absence of life whether it be early or after many years, has seen people donate their corporal remains to science all the time. Sure saves on the funeral costs. I really wish people would stop trying to force their beliefs on others and keep their nose out of other peoples private business. How simple is that?

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aaw6299

https://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-human-fetal-tissue-research-why-is-it-done-2020-10

 

Oh for Christ’s sake, do you live on the moon? You know very well why people went ape shit over George Floyd’s death BECAUSE the murderous actions of Chauvin were recorded
for all the world to witness. A similar push for civil rights occurred after the torture and murder of Emmett Till when his mother insisted on an open casket for photographs to be taken and the public to see for themselves what those scumbag red necks did to her son.

Let’s see some footage of the gruesome abortions you claim are going on. When it makes the national news, I’ll take a look for myself as I assume law enforcement agencies tasked with upholding the law will do for themselves. If it comes to it, let a trial be held to see if those responsible will be held accountable. Derek Chauvin had his day in court and he was found GUILTY of murder.

WTF are you even talking about? It’s old news that after some bogus videos of PP supposedly selling fetal parts was found to have no basis, the Texas AG indicted two anti-abortion activists instead.
https://www.npr.org/2016/01/28/4645...ood-investigations-find-no-fetal-tissue-sales

Do you have new evidence? New footage? I have no patience for conspiracy theories but those within the AMA have heard those concerns and an ethical code for those dealing with fetal tissues has been proffered:
https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/ethics/research-using-human-fetal-tissue

Fetal tissue has been used successfully for:
Life-saving advances, including the development of vaccines against rubella, rabies, and hepatitis A viruses, and antiviral drugs that prevent HIV/AIDS, required fetal tissue research. Today, fetal tissue is being used to develop new medicines including vaccines for HIV/AIDS, preventives for Zika virus, and immunotherapies to battle untreatable cancers.
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aaw6299

So yes, if a woman can not or will not carry a child, why can’t society use these discarded embryos and early fetal tissues for the benefit of human kind. In a way, those lost beings termination would not be in vain. On the other end of life, I know someone who has willed their body upon death to science to be used as a medical cadaver to train medical students.

IMO, the Nazis tortured living, breathing people, including children because they were racist sociopaths bent on genocide. Again, I would suggest there’s a hell of a difference between a 12 -15 week old fetus developing in a uterus and a birthed person who is already living their life as independent beings.

There are definitely things in this life that have been proven to be detrimental. Society sanctions some of those things, such as cigarettes, alcoholic beverages or gambling for example, even cannabis now. It’s up to the adult individual to see that they don’t misuse or over indulge with these things. Many people however have trouble with impulse control, I guess, and get drunk, or gamble their pay check away, or smoke so much they end up with a debilitating disease or death. Even donating an organ to someone in need is considered honorable or heroic. I don’t think it’s legal to sell an organ for profit in this country but I have no idea if there’s a black market for it. Why don’t we get rid of social media while we’re at it. Some people have trouble determining fact from fiction. It can lead to an insurrection against our government based on lies and just plain fiction.

OTOH while the government can and does put restrictions on certain behaviors and substances, no one is going to say John Doe can’t go to the pub every week to get pie-eyed. Well, they tried with prohibition but look how that turned out. It’s good that there are some restrictions but the main focus of gov. Agencies like a police force rests on punitive actions should someone’s bad behavior infringe on someone else. Otherwise it’s a private matter. Besides, I thought the GOP decried a nanny state.

And maybe the Earth becomes so over populated that the government will encourage people to voluntarily end their lives. Then their bodies will be made into a substance that the rest of the population can use as food….wait! I’ve seen that movie! LOL

Look, we’ll all be dead due to climate change and/or international conflict or new viruses anyways before a scenario like you describe happens. LOL Actually, that might really occur if the forests burn, natural water sources dry up, grain can’t be shipped to countries that rely on it or someone launches a nuke. What if the mid west experiences another dust bowl and we don’t eat….and all those extra mouths to feed…*shakes head* increasing crime might indeed become a problem. Hell, if the earth’s temperature gets any hotter in the summer months than it has been already….I don’t want to think about it, but maybe a raging pandemic that we can’t use fetal tissue to help us with treatments and vaccines will wipe out a good portion of the population…but all those babies growing up with shrinking resources….You have your “rational” worries and I’ll have mine.