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Game of Thrones(SPOILERS)

Discussion in 'Television Shows' started by Killermolls, May 17, 2012.

  1. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    I finally got to see episode 5 and though we’re shown differences from the text it was a masterpiece of character emotions.

    I think I understand Ser Cole as portrayed in this episode. He fell in love with Rhaenyra but she refused to run away with him and give up her crown to be his wife. Hurt and humiliated at instead being offered the position of her side piece, he can’t control his feelings of shame and jealousy. After all, as I said, he sullied his white cloak, the best position he would ever have, to couple with the Princess.

    Because of this, we see him rush ahead of Alicent when she questions him about Daemon and Rhaenyra and confesses it was he who bedded the Princess. Really? If he had calmed down and heard Alicent out, he could have truthfully said the rumors about D&R were completely false without implicating himself. Idiot! THEN he kills Laenor’s lover when he suggests to Cole that they have an arrangement to keep each other’s secrets! I get that…no one likes to be blackmailed but c’mon. He was over reacting cause he was all knotted up seeing R&L dancing. Then try and do yourself in? It’s said there’s a fine line between love and hate and Cole has crossed that line as far as Rhaenyra is concerned (I noticed that he was quick to point out to the Queen that Rhaenyra initiated the affair). However, Alicent is about to reel him in with a life preserver.

    Then there’s Alicent. First, her old man plants the idea in her head that Rhaenyra will have to kill her children to cement her claim to the throne or there will be war. Then Larys Strong suggests that Rhaenyra was pregnant (presumably by Daemon) which unsettles her because she took Rhaenyra’s side of the chastity issue only to find out later her friend actually did the deed with Cole! Whew, you usually only see this type of mess in a soap, lol.

    Why should she care? Because the whole shit pot resulted in her father’s dismissal from his position as Hand and he subsequently had to leave the Capitol. She feels used. That’s why she wears the colors of her house, green, to the pre wedding feast to give the message that it’s on. I also think that she’s a bit angry with Rhaenyra cause she has to endure the sexual attentions of a man who is old enough to be her father who has physical disfigurements while her erstwhile “friend” got a night of passion with a hot dude they both had admired. Just sayin’. Now she feels justified as the “good” girl.

    Daemon is still a creeper to me as evidenced by his murdering his wife. Can’t get a divorce? He’ll settle for widower. Then he runs to Kings Landing to make a Hail Mary pass at securing his niece’s hand, trying to upend the “peace treaty” so to speak between the two great houses. Go back to the Vale buddy if they’ll have you…most likely not.

    Not a great start for a marriage and poor Rhaenyra seems to be caught in a whirlpool of events that she ultimately can’t control. We have no idea if she even knows that her lover confessed to the Queen or how her new husband will react to Cole’s murdering his boyfriend or how Cole will react to her now that she more or less rebuffed him or even why Alicent has declared “war”. More important why any of this should have any effect on Rhaenyra’s ascension to the throne.

    Stay tuned for a time jump that should set us up for how all the players are taking sides as an unhealthy king ages….and then get ready for the dance!
     
    #8341 purriwinkle, Sep 19, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2022
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  2. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, me too. In this world where marriages between the great houses are political alliances it’s nice to see when the couple involved actually fall in love and support each other. Between GoTs and this show we’ve see so many of these marriages where there’s no connection. Ned and Catelyn Stark had a similar relationship although she had initially been promised to Brandon but they made it work.

    What struck me too was that Rhaenys tried to put the welfare of her son above any past slight given her as most mothers would. She tried to tell Corlys that she thought this marriage would put Laenor in danger but gave in as her husband reassured her which showed she loved him too by trusting him. It’s so refreshing to see that although nursing Corly’s butt hurt over past grievances turns out not good for the family.
     
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  3. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Cristin Cole was showing some real incel rage in that episode. I thought they did a masterful job of writing the reaction of the type of guy that just doesn't take rejection well. Often in society today we see them stalk or attack the woman. He can't do that here because she's heir, but he still tries to destroy her. I saw his Alicent confession almost like a murder/suicide move. He was so enraged with Rhaenyra that he figured he would be fine with dying to ruin her. It's sick really. He wants to possess her, not love her. If he loved her he'd keep the secret. He might even continue the relationship on the side, but if that would be too much for him then he would at least not betray her. Even him asking her to give up the throne to go with him was an act of selfishness. He never considers her in any of this.

    Rhaenyra on the other hand I felt dealt with the whole situation the best she could. She was honest with Laenor and set up a deal with him on how their marriage would go. Most heirs, or monarchs, wouldn't even bother with it. They'd just do whatever the hell they wanted. Look at Robert Baratheon and all of his bastards. She was also honest with Cole. He had agency in all of this too. He knew he was having sex with the heir to the throne. All of his "honor" and self righteousness is ridiculous.

    You made some great points on Alicent. I liked the way they used the celebration as the turning point in the saga, Alicent walking in with the green dress. Everyone in the hall stood for her too, except Daemon. Nice touch by the showrunners. They do so many little things well. It's the sort of show you need to watch twice to catch all the subtle stuff, foreshadowing and symbolism.

    The Daemon murder scene reminded me of Jaime pushing Bran out the window, but in reverse in a way. Daemon hesitated, then went back and did it, whereas Jaime didn't think twice. Both have an amoral sense when it comes to their personal relationships. No one will stand in their way of Cersei/Rhaenyra. Yet, both have an odd sense of the bigger picture. Jaime killed the Mad King to save the people of King's Landing. Daemon in the previous episode told Rhaenyra that she has to be concerned about the people she rules over. It's a fascinating duality. And I'm not saying they're both the same, there's just a common thread in this respect.

    Also, easily the stupidest person this season is Rhea Royce. She feels Daemon might've come there to kill her, yet as he's walking away she taunts him for not having the guts to do it. Congratulations Rhea Royce you are this year's winner of the Westeros Darwin Award!

    Such a great show. I just keep getting drawn deeper into it.
     
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  4. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Your thoughts on Cole’s behavior were interesting. It’s good to get the male perspective on it. I never would have perceived his actions as so….aggressive, if that’s the right word. He seemed to me to be rather stupid actually. Like you said, how could he not have any idea as to what he was doing with the heir apparent. I’m not saying he didn’t fall for her on some level but he should have known how the system worked. He was a lowly knight of no great house whom she elevated to a white cloak. Did he think he was so good in the sack that Rhaenyra would throw away everything to marry him and run off to Essos? How did he think that was going to work. Viserys and Daemon would have gone after them and they would have always been looking over their shoulder not knowing when the other shoe would fall. Would she have been content to live that sort of life when she had been brought up to put duty first? What was he thinking?

    I just figured that when she refused him he felt so guilty that he started making ridiculous blunders. Of course he’s hurt as well which makes him vulnerable to Alicent’s machinations. The two of them will be able to feel self righteous together, I guess, making Rhaenyra the scape goat. We know he’s gonna side with the queen going forward. What a tool.

    Have you taken notice of Breakbones Strong? Easy on the eyes and he looks at Rhaenyra like he approves of everything he sees. Right back to when she returned from the hunt covered in boars blood to the way he looked at her when they were dancing. Naturally, he’d let Daemon cut in but right away we can see he’ll be a ready volunteer if she needs a shoulder to lean on ….or some other body part. We won’t even get into brother Larys. He’s as bad as Littlefinger. What’s his game really. Why stir up trouble between the Queen and the Princess?
     
    #8344 purriwinkle, Sep 21, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
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  5. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    I didn't really take that view on Cole though until he killed Joffrey Lonmouth at the celebration. That was just a psychotic rage which goes beyond any stupidity or guilt. Notice too his actions on the boat, which I re-examined after he went crazy. He didn't even listen to Rhaenyra explain more of her point of view. He just walked away from her. Everything is about him, and how he feels and he has that internalized incel sort of craziness. In our world today the guy would be involved in a mass shooting or something. Sick, sick dude.

    And yes, while the case could be made that the weaker Viserys would just let Rhaenyra go and name Aegon heir, Daemon would follow them to the end of the world, leave Cristin half dead and then feed him alive to Caraxes.

    Yeah I noticed Harwin Strong at the hunt too. He was impressed with Rhaenyra when she returned with the boar covered in blood. He was like, that's my kind of woman! lol It reminded me a little of Tormund when he saw Brienne. They did a great job in casting him.

    Larys is very bad news. He's effective too because he comes across as unassuming and without real motivations.

    Here's one theory I have on it all. Some have speculated that there is a Grand Maester conspiracy against the Targaryens. Look at the illness Viserys has. I don't believe they've caused it, but they sure aren't helping much. There have been little things they've shown too where it doesn't look like they're giving him the best treatment. In the last episode the new maester suggested a potion, and the older one said no the leeches always work best. Well, obviously it's not working, look at him. And Viserys also has suspicions about Baelon's death which he expressed to Otto two episodes ago.

    So, if there is something going on behind the scenes to bring down the Targaryens through the Citadel I could see Larys being connected to that. I don't believe Otto is involved in any of that though if it's happening.
     
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  6. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    You nailed that analogy between Harwin and Tormund! Looks like that’s exactly what’s going through Harwin’s mind, lol He’s perfect for Rhaenyra too. More brawn than brains and he doesn’t look like he’ll go all emo or anything on her. Laenor’s gonna be useless in the bedroom. From what we know he didn’t even do his perfunctory duty to sire one Velaryion/Targaryen heir, at least. The same mistake Cersei will make 200 yrs later.

    I read about the maester conspiracy to rid the world of Dragons, literally. If the Citadel is behind any sort of scheme, I don’t think it’s to bring down the Targs per se although they may not be in favor of Viserys naming his daughter as his heir.

    What good would killing Viserys do at this point? If they had succeeded in bringing Visarys death on before Rhaenyra’s marriage, Daemon might have actually flown to the Red Keep, on Caraxes, and forcibly taken his niece to wife as she suggested at the wedding feast. Maester Mellos is a quack, IMO who hasn’t kept up with newer medical interventions like Orwyle.

    In fact, they should be trying to keep Viserys alive as long as possible for the king’s sons with Alicent to come of age. I could see them supporting a Targ/Hightower heir however since the Citadel lies in Oldtown, the seat of Hightower power. Could be they think they’ll have more influence if they have a direct connection to the future king.

    Maesters in general are a funny lot. Who the hell knows what power they have behind the scenes. Didn’t Doran Martell send one of the sea snakes to the Citadel in Martin’s last book? There must have been a reason why.
     
    #8346 purriwinkle, Sep 22, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
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  7. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    I felt the transition to the later timeline was wobbly. Introducing the older versions of Rhaenyra and Alicent should be done in a more deliberate fashion as we saw in Episode 1 of this season. We need to settle in and grow accustomed to what's going. Instead we jumped right in head first. Welcome Harwin, the father of Rhaenrya's kids. Don't get too accustomed to him though because he'll be dead by the end of the episode. Oh, look Daemon is married to Laena. Cool. Oh wait, she's dead too. Daemon lost two wives in two episodes. And let's kill off Lyonel too.

    You just don't have time to get invested in these characters so there's no real impact when they die.

    And what's the deal with Criston Cole? There's no explanation about how he could kill someone at the wedding celebration and remain. We can't even get a line, like Alicent saying she saved him? Then Harwin gets banished for punching the natural born killer dude. Wow.

    What was good about this episode revolved around the kids. I really enjoyed the sparring matches, and them teasing Aemond, giving him a pig. It felt natural for kids their age. Vermax with Jacaerys was perfect. Aegon was well cast. All of this was great.

    The visuals and dialogue, as usual, were both excellent. It's the least impressive episode of the season for me by far though, because the pacing was on steroids. And I know where the story is going. I'm concerned about what the average viewer is thinking. They could be lost, or they might not care that certain characters were discarded like red shirts. I'm not sure which.
     
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  8. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    This episode was rough. Yes, there were gaps that non readers might have wanted filled but if you know the text you weren’t surprised.

    First and foremost, seeing how much of a bitch Alicent had become almost made me gag. From dragging Rhaenyra from her birthing bed so she could see what color hair the newborn had to harassing Viserys pretty much taking over for him to giving Larys all the reason he needed to kill his dad and brother. At least he would say it was her idea and command if it ever came to light. He’ll be rewarded when the time comes alright. I can’t wait till that piece of shit gets his….much later of course. The kin slayer is accursed.

    His time was limited but I really liked Harwin Strong. I think there may have been some true affection between himself and Rhaenyra or maybe just strong physical chemistry but he was definitely a good dad….Even if it meant exposing himself to danger by confirming what was an open secret. I say, too f**king bad. It was no secret that Laenor was gay but in the interests of an alliance they married the princess to him anyways. I know she gave him full reign to live his own life and they were still kids when wed but c’mon they still needed one legitimate heir. (Even book Renly told his brother Stannis he was working on getting Margaery pregnant and would have a male heir before older bro would with his wife and Renly was gay too). THEN they could have lived their separate love lives. Just the way it worked in this world.

    Never the less, the “Strong” boys are also Targaryens and dragon riders. Their mother has been named heir. Why would Viserys denounce them now? He’s tried to get all the boys to form a bond by being raised with each other. Maybe it would have worked except for the fact that Cole is still in Alicent’s sphere. Who the hell does he think he is? He slept with Rhaenyra too. Maybe he’s jealous deep down that Harwin took his place in the Princess’s bed.

    As for Daemon? He actually seemed content with Laena. At least he managed to have children with her. He was even contemplating an offer to become a wealthy landowner despite his wife wanting to return back to Driftmark. I think they rather liked riding their dragons together as much as others liked watching them do it. Unable to push the latest baby out, Laena steals away while the maester is giving Daemon the same options Viserys was given years ago. She would rather die the death of a dragon rider and her dragon finally frys her while Daemon watches. Nasty. Now that he’s a widower again he has another chance to make his mark. Take it man! It’ll be what he’s wanted like forever.
     
    #8348 purriwinkle, Sep 27, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2022
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  9. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    I thought they did an amazing job designing Vhagar too. She's the oldest dragon in the series. Some might debate that Cannibal is, but no one knows for sure how old that dragon is since it lives in the wild. But Vhagar had such presence in that scene with Laena. Although I never developed a connection to Laena's character since the older version was just introduced, I did feel for Vhagar not wanting to kill her. Just the expression on the dragon's face. They did that so well.

    How comfortable Daemon seemed to be in Essos has me further contemplating what I brought up earlier in the season:


    What's really weird to me is that there are some people out there on the side of the Greens. I don't get that. It's not that Rhaenyra is perfect, she's flawed like anyone, but simply having Criston Cole and Larys on your side is despicable enough, let alone Alicent's behavior.

    This was brought home even more to me by Rhaenyra's offer of joining their children in marriage. This basically solves the whole problem of long term succession. Alicent won't even entertain it. And Rhaenyra IS a Targaryen. It's much different than Stannis challenging Joffrey since Cersei did not have her children with Robert. What's the problem at this stage, aside from her need for power. Babbling to Aegon about Rhaenyra killing him, just because the snake Otto put it in her head, is taken off the table when the marriage offer was made. This makes the ensuing battle even more pointless.

    I wish they had given more insight into the relationship Larys had with his family. One thing George does in his writing is produce gray characters. Larys is shown with no real motivation for killing them, beyond power.
     
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  10. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    I agree that we’re not given much to go on with some of these characters. The book is quite simply a historic chronicle that tells you what happened year by year. It doesn’t necessarily flesh out the characters or give the readers much insight on occasion into what even actually happened as Eustace and Mushroom are often at odds in their accounts. Screw motivation.

    How anyone could back the “Greens” is beyond me. We have two (three if you count Larys) bitter, jealous, conniving and cruel characters who would steal power away from the woman their fathers swore to uphold. Alicent thinks she’s so much better than Rhaenyra that she won’t or can’t see the equity of the offer to join their children in marriage, as you mentioned. It’s not like Rhaenyra was sleeping with the kitchen cook. Harwin was captain of the Gold Cloaks and the first born son of a Lord who sat on the king’s small council. The kids gene pool was no worse than her kids who were only half Targaryen as well. Her only card was that Harwin wasn’t Rhaenyra’s legal husband, so she was having a hissy fit over what she claimed was a moral issue. It has to boil down then to a “power” play cloaked as religious piety. Aegon didn’t exactly impress me. He seemed like a spoiled brat but I’m sure Otto would be controlling the strings much like Tywin did.
     
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  11. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I was reading some comments on Youtube videos and someone said that Aegon was perfectly cast because it's going to be so easy to love to hate him. Then someone responded, "I won't hate him, I'm for the Greens." Now while these people are in the minority of those watching the show, it's a really weird dynamic how anyone could be drawn to such awful people. It's not like in Game of Thrones where you can like Tyrion but still hate what his family is doing.

    Otto started all of this. He pushed his daughter on Viserys. If the king had listened to Lyonel and married Laena there would've been a peaceful transition since the two houses were close and joined. Corlys doesn't have a problem with Rhaenyra's children. Along with the pursuit of power there's this weird dynamic of moral purity in the Greens. The closest we've come to it in this world is with the High Sparrow.

    Even Ned who had some rigid principles was willing to let Cersei just leave King's Landing with her kids rather than face retribution. It was a stupid strategic and political move on his part, but that's a whole other discussion.

    I loathe Criston Cole the most. He broke his vows and now he walks around so sanctimoniously saying vile things about Rhaenyra and even picking on her young children.
     
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  12. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Yes, this is on Viserys to some extent. I also blame the Faith of the Seven. The rules and customs of Old Valyria weren’t exactly compatible with the tenets of the Seven. The Targs already had a dispensation when it came to incest. Viserys should not have married off Daemon to some far off land hold but betrothed him to his daughter. Then he should have married Laena. Those would have been Iron clad arrangements that no Westerosi Lord could have broken.

    Whether or not that would have created infighting between the brothers is unknown but Otto and Larys wouldn’t have had the influence they wielded. Criston Cole would have kept it in his pants, as well, if he knew what was good for him. Harwin would probably have been over the moon if matched, say, with Rhea Royce. There was another good huntswoman, lol. Of course that’s a parallel universe but there were bad decisions made all around.

    What makes me wonder is why bastards fathered by the Lords were accepted to some degree but those of the Ladies were not.
    Toxic patriarchy is my best guess. You had to be a powerful widow like Olenna Tyrell to rule your province without a man.
     
    #8352 purriwinkle, Sep 30, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2022
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  13. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    I believe Viserys truly wants Rhaenyra to both be happy, and also ascend to the throne. A part of that too is that he still loves Aemma. With all of this in mind, and his terrible condition, he should've just stepped down and installed Rhaenyra. He could say he'd work beside her until he died, sort of like a Hand to the Queen. Few would've challenged that, and it would insure a more peaceful transition and acclimated them to a woman ruling them with a man still at her side.

    This would also immediately diminish the power of Alicent and her family.

    One thing I really like about what they've done, and I think this shows George's hand in it all, is they've emphasized the foolishness of the war that is to come. Rhaenyra's offer of marrying their children off was such an easy way out of this mess. Also there is the whole small-mindedness of squabbling over the father of her children is. Laenor and the Velaryons accept it. That should be the end of the story. She is the rightful heir.

    It's so stupid because in the name of power and revenge Alicent's actions will lead to members of her own family dying unnecessarily. And they've demonstrated this so well with Aegon who is just a spoiled brat that has no interest in ruling. He'd be fine with Jace on the throne while he could go off doing whatever he wanted.

    It's going to be difficult to watch as all of this plays out. It'll be the bittersweet ending that we were promised for Game of Thrones. Well, maybe a bit more bitter, but I think realistic for this world and the path they're going down.
     
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  14. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    I like your solution of stepping down as king, installing Rhaenyra and acting as Hand until she was accepted. Very reasonable but I don’t think anyone ever ascended to the throne in Westeros while the previous ruler was still alive. Nor can I remember anyone abdicating after accepting the crown although Aemon Targaryen who we met at the Wall in GoTs refused the crown when it was offered after his older brother’s death. It then passed to his younger brother.

    I agree about the foolishness of this conflict to come. Totally unnecessary and will result in heartbreak for everyone. Of course it was small minded to squabble about the paternity of Rhaenyra’s older children but her sons with her next husband should have been accepted hands down. The line of succession could have gone through them to silence any doubters.

    I’ll wait until Martin finally finishes his Song of Ice and Fire, if he ever does, to weigh in on which ending is the most bitter sweet. I really hate that description btw, lol. So far it’s just been bitter.
     
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  15. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Yeah we only have Aemon refusing the crown, but we also never had a woman take the throne. Everyone recognizes how problematic this would be so since Viserys is already making a precedent, having a second one wouldn't be a big deal. And he'd be alive to enforce it. Plus he'd have even more time to build his model of Valyria.
     
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  16. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    This episode was a surprise. The one that preceded it was the worst of the season, and I think this one was the best. Laena's funeral was a great point to bring everyone together. I enjoyed the non verbal stuff going on as much as the actual dialogue.

    The actors that play Rhaenyra and Daemon were both excellent here. The younger Aemond also delivered. He and the first Rhaenyra were the best of the younger actors that we've seen.

    What's funny is that after episode 6 I had a feeling Laenor would die next, and that it would feel rushed after the deaths of Harwin and Laena, but his demise felt more organic within the story. But then there was the twist that he wasn't killed, which was interesting. We saw enough of him in the show though too and this felt like a more natural progression in the story. I don't want to beat a dead horse, so it'll be the last time I mention it, but I think they could've done the same with Harwin and Laena if they had put more into it.

    Anyway, while I'm on Team Black, I did love the Aemond scene where he bonded with Vhagar. You can tell they took a lot of time and effort into putting in the visuals for Vhagar in this episode, and it showed. That was amazing.

    Also, the work they put in earlier in the season building the bond between Rhaenyra and Daemon paid off in this one. I was a little surprised that she suggested the whole thing with Laenor. I was expecting that to be something Daemon did on his own. It worked though and showed what they've been mapping out since episode 1, that the two are alike in many ways. Vhagar, or not, I wouldn't want to be on the other side facing these two united.

    So many little things in this episode that they worked in. I loved the talk between Rhaenys and Corlys where she called him on being unable to put her not ascending to the throne behind him. He's mentioned it a few times this season, and she was just done with it, after having long ago accepted it. And it worked as foreshadowing for Laenor's "death." The ambition of Corlys has cost their family, and the children with Rhaenyra aren't even Velaryons.

    Great episode.

    One side note. In the preview they were showing the brother of Corlys quite a bit. He's the one person I feel is miscast in this series. He just doesn't feel like a fit. It's as if he's doing some cosplay routine. It jumped right out at me in that first scene he did with Corlys and Daemon at the Stepstones.
     
    #8356 Stealth, Oct 3, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2022
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  17. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, very good episode! So much going on. You read it on the page but to see it played out in live action gives so much more to the story. How a funeral can trigger a much bigger crises within a family, bringing all the bottom feeders out, made me feel like I wanted to avert my eyes, the emotions were so raw. Well done by all the actors!

    With all her protestations about sacrificing, and doing your duty to the crown and realm, Alicent managed to drop the ball by bringing up rotten, spoiled, mean sons. If she hadn’t spent so much time hating Rhaenyra and scheming to bring her down she could have spent more time developing her boy’s characters which would have made better sense. As it is, she could never see through her anger and jealousy. Aegon is not exactly the kind of monarch I’d like to see on the throne and she raised the little shit and his brother.

    Rhaenyra did what she had to. She knows her father’s days are nearing an end and she has to think of her own position and that of her children. In the book, Laenor was killed supposedly by his lover while visiting Spicetown. So that may happen off screen but in a way, having his death faked now and running off with Qarl was a nice touch. Rhaenyra loved Laenor despite everything and he had saved Daemon’s life in the Stepstones, so they “set him free”. At this point she needs Daemon’s strength and cunning at her side as husband and most likely Hand, There is genuine love there, I think, and Daemon should finally be content knowing that his ambitions of ruling after Viserys is almost within his reach.

    I liked the scenes with Aemon and Vhagar too. Great CGI. I understand his need to have a dragon of his own. In the book, both of Daemon’s girls by Laena are bonded with dragons of their own so the assertion that the girls had planned on claiming their mother’s dragon for themselves was a huh? moment but since that wasn’t really brought out on the show it kinda fit. An eye for a dragon. Otto and Aemon himself thought it was a good trade.

    I felt the most sorry for Rhaenys now that both her children are gone. She was heart broken. I don’t know how much screen time she’ll have now but when we do see her I think she’ll be a changed woman due to her grief.
     
    #8357 purriwinkle, Oct 3, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2022
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  18. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Your point about Alicent being a horrendous mother reminded me of something in the episode. Otto noticed how much Rhaenyra's kids obeyed her. They went to bed when she told them to. Shortly after you saw him angrily dragging a drunk Aegon back inside. I liked how they subtly bookended those two things. I think Otto respects Rhaenyra too. We saw it for the first time at Dragonstone with the egg. But they're on opposite sides and like in the Godfather films that makes it "just business."

    I liked how Daemon had become content enough in Essos. He was pushing back against Laena wanting to return. But then it's Rhaenyra who drags him back into all the conflict etc. They did an excellent job of building up to that moment too, because even when she was young Rhaenyra had a bit of a power over him. It's no small achievement too since we know how stubborn and independent he is.

    I liked the Laenor twist a lot. Unlike Harwin and Laena who we barely saw, they did a good job with his character. So it's a fitting end. Or perhaps he could return in some capacity later on. Who knows. I hope they tell Rhaenys the truth though. She accepted her son for who he was, so I think they could pull it off. They would likely need to keep Corlys in the dark though.

    But this gets a bit more curious when you consider now that Seasmoke doesn't have a rider. A dragon will not bond with another as long as the current one is still alive. So is it possible that Laenor could return in the Dance and fill the role that Addam had?

    Also, this whole Laenor scheme I think foreshadows what I mentioned early in the series, the possible fake death toward the end of another character, that I included in spoilers.

    Overall I like how they're keeping even book readers on their toes and filling out the history with some surprises.
     
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  19. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    This episode was the first one of the season that I'd say was a 10/10. The walk that Viserys made into the throne room was the best scene of season. He was never more of a King than in that moment. And then to have him stumble, only to have Daemon help him the rest of the way. You'd have to be a stone cold psychopath like Cristin Cole, to not be at least slightly moved by that scene.

    And this moment was everything.

    [​IMG]

    Paddy Considine deserves and Emmy nomination for his performance. He is the standout in a season where we've have some great acting.

    The best line of the episode goes to Daemon. "He can keep his tongue." I hated the Vaemond character so it was the perfect end for me. What a moron too calling the heir to the throne a whore in the throne room. Hasta la vista.

    I liked the contrast they showed in this episode between the character of Jace and Aegon. It was interwoven into the story so well. Aegon was a complete loser, and now he's sexually assaulted a servant. Jace on the flipside is working hard to learn Valyrian. Then after momentarily taking Aegon's bait, he recognized it was the wrong move and offered a toast. You could see too that Aegon felt a bit self conscious that Jace had been able to rise above it.

    I think I've said this here before but there are so many subtle things they do well, like the look Otto gave Alicent when she said Rhaenyra would be a good queen.

    I felt bad for Rhaenys. They never told her Laenor's death was faked. So not only doesn't she know her son is alive, but for the benefit of her family she's joining her grandchildren in marriage with the children of a woman she believes was responsible for Laenor's death. So brutal. I hope she eventually learns the truth.

    I was a bit skeptical of their use of Aegon's prophecy in the series but it's paid off. First it seemed as if Rhaenyra was hesitant herself about taking the throne. When she was at the bedside of Viserys she asked him if he truly believed it. On some level she feels it's her obligation. And this makes the whole saga even sadder in a way, because we see how happy they all are at Dragonstone. Daemon is most motivated these days by collecting dragon eggs.

    Even Alicent, for all of her issues, recognized that Aegon was unworthy. I liked how they worked in his problems so you could see why she'd be more apt to almost reconcile with Rhaenyra at the dinner. And while I think there was some wishful thinking in her interpreting the words Viserys uttered as him wanting their son Aegon on the throne, the use of the prophecy really helped to propel the essential conflict in a way Viserys could have never imagined.

    At least he died with the illusion of the family dinner having brought everyone together. Outstanding episode.
     
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  20. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely, this episode was outstanding! Whether or not you thought Viserys weak at points during his reign, this episode really hit home that he was a good man, a man who loved his family and especially a man who tried to the very end to support his beloved daughter by Aemma. It was very moving when he made his walk to the IT. Even Daemon was touched to give his brother the respect he deserved by helping him to ascend his throne with dignity…..and to silence any slanderous accusers who would mar the planned line of succession showing he was still a force to be reckoned with. Even one eyed Aemon got that message when he backed his arse down as it became clear he might have to tangle with his uncle over his slights to Rhaenyra’s older children at dinner.

    They did a great job in contrasting the older children of Rhaenyra and Alicent. While both sets of kids may only be half Targaryen you can see clearly who had the better temperaments and upbringing. While older, neither of Alicent’s two boys are suited to be good kings, one being a lazy roue and the other a vengeful prick. Rhaenyra’s boys are industrious and kind. When Helaena makes a sad comment as to her marriage with Aegon, Jace asks her to dance, which was kind and an insult to Aegon all at the same time. Brilliant! Betrothed to Daemon’s daughters with Laena they would be good husbands both.

    I thought both Rhaenyra first and then Alicent following suite were quite gracious in their toasts to one another at dinner. Things might have quieted down if not for the kids. We also got a lesson in why they shouldn’t keep naming the sons after the same few people. Viserys in his death throes was rambling, I believe about Aegon the conqueror while Alicent took it to mean he was talking about her son. Now she thinks, incorrectly, Viserys has changed his mind about the succession. Wishful thinking indeed but she’s been poisoned by Ottos words in her ear for years.

    I agree that this episode deserves more than one viewing to catch all the subtleties within but I think they are moving the time line along too quickly. The children need to be older before the dance commences and they’ve already killed Viserys off.
     
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