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Game of Thrones(SPOILERS)

Discussion in 'Television Shows' started by Killermolls, May 17, 2012.

  1. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    While I didn't have as big of a problem with this time jump as the one between episodes 5 and 6, I agree that the pacing has been too fast this season. Previously I mentioned how we were basically introduced to Laena and Harwin and they were killed off in the same episode.

    My feeling is that they were unsure how well this series would be received after the disastrous ending of GOT. So they felt they needed to race us ahead to the Dance. I think this is more Miguel Sapochnik's influence and not Ryan Condal. Condal is the lore guy that George trusts, Sapochnik is more the spectacle type. I don't meant to diminish him, because episodes like Hardhome were excellent. But if you want an intricate development of characters and plot then he's not your guy. Episode 6 which he directed was a mess, the worst of the season. There was no payoff for Laena and Harwin's deaths.

    Anyway, I think it's more frustrating to book readers like us than the general audience, because people don't care as much if certain other aspects are not expanded. It's like in Season 1 of GOT when Ned executed the deserter from the Night's Watch. If the books had a larger story, or significance for that character (which it didn't) we would've been bothered. So a lot of people don't know what they're missing.

    I have a feeling too that a certain scene at Storm's End is going to be included in Episode 10 too. I was expecting that for Season 2, but it feels like it's coming now.

    One problem I think is we had a normal sort of pacing for episodes 1 to 5 and then once we hit 6 it went on steroids. George says the series will likely be 4 seasons. But I believe they could've gotten 5 out of it if they'd told the backstory in a more deliberate fashion.

    It's not as if there weren't other big moments they could've ended Season 1 on, deaths of Laena/Harwin/Lyonel would've worked if we properly built up to it. They also could've done it around Episode 7, following the funeral. You'd have the fake death of Laenor, Vhagar going to the Greens and the Rhaenyra and Daemon wedding. There are so many big moments that would've worked.

    So I would've kept Viserys alive into Season 2. Also the time skip to where we were in Episode 8 would've felt better after a long break in seasons. Then you get the older versions of the children.

    The show is still excellent, but at times it feels like we're getting the outline version.
     
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  2. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    The thing that stood out to me the most in this episode was how Alicent is mirroring the same horrible parenting she received from Otto. He forced her onto an older, diseased ridden king. She is pushing her own child, against his wishes, to take the throne. The easy out here is to notify Rhaenyra and walk away. All of her children, except for Aemond, would be happier. And he would just likely fly around on Vhagar and be a thorn in Rhaenyra's side the same way Daemon was to Viserys early on.

    We haven't seen much of Helaena, but I find her character interesting. It's not just that she has visions etc, but her interactions with her family are fascinating. This was the second episode where she pulled away from Alicent when she went to touch her. And when they were there for the coronation of Aegon, most of the time she kept her head turned away from him.

    It was great spectacle to have Rhaenys emerge on Meleys, but it gave me some late season GOT vibes, doing something for the visuals. Once you place Rhaenys in front of all the Greens like that, after the initial adrenaline rush goes, you're left thinking, why didn't she burn them all?

    And that's a problem. Maybe she didn't want to be a kin slayer. I could accept that but we need a payoff. Perhaps in her scene with Alicent when she was held captive she could've told her, "Are you going to just kill me in cold blood? I would never do such a thing to family." At least sell the scene a bit people. Come on.

    It was a great looking scene though, and I've liked the Rhaenys character from the beginning of the series. Meleys knew what needed to be done though. You could tell she wanted to torch them into fried green tomatoes.

    While I've criticized the lack of backstory on some things, I definitely don't want to get the story behind the foot fetish Larys has. That was enough.

    Cristin Cole is the worst person of the whole group, and that's saying a lot. He just killed Lord Beesbury in cold blood like the psychopath he is. Some might say Otto, but he's doing the dirty work in a Tywin sort of way (not that he comes close to him in scheming) but he has a goal. Like most wars, the things he does he sees as a necessary evil. Cole just kills people arbitrarily, first Joffrey and now Beesbury and without anyone instructing him to do these things. I didn't mind Aemond as much prior to this episode, but it was creepy and telling that he bonded a bit with Cole when they went Aegon hunting.

    A solid episode, but I'm going to place the Rhaenys/Meleys scene on the shelf in case we see more like it in the future of the series. There were signs in GOT too where they went a bit too far. I always gives shows a benefit of the doubt until a pattern develops. I'm glad it's just Ryan Condal as showrunner next year, and Miguel Sapochnik will no longer be doing it with him. These sort of spectacles are his sort of thing.

    Just one left to go, episode 10, "The Black Queen." Can't wait to see Team Black react to the usurpation.

    (The promo looks like we are going to see THAT scene at Storm's End too. Not looking forward to it.)
     
  3. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, putting Aegon on the throne has been the driving force of Otto and then Alicent since she gave birth to him. The whole of Westeros is stuck in a medievalist gridlock which can’t bend or evolve into something as radical as having a woman on the IT despite the fact Aegon ruled with his two sisters. I wonder if Laenor had impregnated Rhaenyra would Otto’s scheme have gained such traction.

    I thought the Larys foot fetish scene was weird too. Alicent attracts the deviates for sure. Possibly the scene was there only to emphasize that Alicent is a whore too as it were. She gives her spy what he wants sexually in exchange for his services. Could be she fears him a bit too but she let the monster play to begin with.

    Halaena has been portrayed as a sensitive girl brought up amongst her nasty brothers, one whom she was forced to marry. Who did that? I’ll bet it was Alicent with Otto’s backing and not Viserys. If she had complained to her father, he would have probably given her in marriage to another. I wonder if her mother slapped her too like she did Aegon, maybe worse, to get her to obey which is why we saw flinching when mom touched her.

    I don’t know how Cristin Cole gets away with murdering a member of the small council except that he has both the Hightower’s protection. He’s getting a little “uppity” if you ask me and High commander Westerling now knows for a certainty who pulls Cole’s strings which is why he resigned his white cloak. He has no desire to sully his own cloak. I think he’ll defect to the Blacks since he was Rhaenyra’s sworn shield when she was a young girl and he doesn’t believe Alicent’s version of how Viserys now wants her son on the throne.

    I did like that scene with Rhaenys and Meleys. She didn’t burn them because the kin slayer is cursed in Westeros( although nobody seems to heed that during the Dance). I do believe that it was a show of power however to let Alicent know she had imprisoned the wrong woman and that now she has a sworn enemy. She also would have been jumping the gun to immolate them without first consulting what the “true” Queens wishes were. I’m sure she’s headed off to Dragonstone to sound the alarm.

    That scene from Storms End. Ugh. I’ve never liked the Baratheons much. There’s something wrong with that House.
     
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  4. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    You bring up an interesting point about Aegon ruling with his sister wives. One could also say that while Jahaerys was King, Alysanne also had a very prominent role as monarch. She was very influential etc. I suppose then that it's more of a Westeros thing. That if we were talking about strictly the Targaryen House that they could've evolved to accept a Queen, the same way we saw with the British monarchy. But women are seen in a more subservient role in the seven kingdoms. If it was a straight patriarchal society among the Targaryens, then you wouldn't see women as dragonriders either.

    Also you have someone who is very independent and strong like Daemon, who is fine taking on a secondary role beside Rhaenyra. If he was a Stannis type he would've gathered his own supporters and we would have a three sided war.

    So while the Targaryens have their issues, they still are the catalyst for progress in Westeros. They brought the seven kingdoms together, are aware of the threat from the north and have generally brought progress. But then you have the more rigid, hypocritical Hightowers coming along to ruin everything.

    They've done a great job with the dragons. This was our first closeup of Meleys. She's just as impressive as Caraxes, Syrax and Vhagar. I wish they had shown us more of Syrax though. We haven't seen her since we had the younger version of Rhaenyra. I know they must've had a limited CGI budget, being unsure how well the show would be received, but Rhaenyra is central to the whole story, so we should've seen her with Syrax more.

    The promo appears to tease our first glimpse of Vermithor for the finale. Ryan Condal said we'll be seeing all the wild dragons too, which means Cannibal as well. There are some wild theories out there about him, one being that he's still alive during the events of Game of Thrones and will appear in George's later novels (if we ever see them).

    Since the Rhaenys scene was not in the book, I think we have some huge surprises ahead. I mentioned one previously about a character presumed dead, but now I'm starting to wonder if that could just be the tip of the iceberg. I think we have other major twists waiting too. George said in his blog that this show should run for 4 seasons total.
     
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  5. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Got a screen shot from that promo. It definitely looks like this is Vermithor that Daemon is approaching on Dragonstone. He did not have a rider after Jaehaerys died and just hung out on Dragonstone. I think it's too soon for the wild dragons.

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    A lot to unpack from this episode. There were changes from the book again, but I think it works. Some people are really losing it. I think their Game of Thrones PTSD is kicking in. Going off the path on Fire and Blood is not the same as moving in a different direction from A Song of Ice and Fire. Also, George is working closely with the series. He's explaining his real intent beyond the reports made by the Maesters and Mushroom in the book.

    Despite his reluctance to actually kill Lucerys when Vhagar got her blood up, Aemond is still responsible for his death. He carried the whole thing too far. You had a battle tested older dragon chasing another one, what did you expect? If he just wanted to do one flyover to scare Lucerys that would be fine, but he continued the chase. It's idiotic to not think this would create a conflict. So I think people that believe the writers left Aemond off the hook are wrong. They didn't. They just added more complexity to his character.

    That scene was amazing. I saw a video on Youtube that broke it down well (the whole dragon and rider relationship) If I'm able to find it I'll post it at some point.

    The Rhaenyra stillborn birth scene was brutal and they caught me off guard because I thought we wouldn't get it so early in the episode.

    My complaint is I felt some of the editing was choppy with Rhaenyra's other scenes, and the ones with Daemon. Some didn't really make sense and felt like they weren't in the correct context. Him grabbing her throat felt off. I just didn't see that in the moment. He's kneeling to her in other moment as his Queen and then holding her hand at the end. I feel as if they worked that scene differently than it was intended, and if it was made to be that way, some of the other stuff didn't make sense.

    Another Rhaenyra scene that was off was that she was on the bridge and told Otto she would give them her answer in one day, yet she then sent Jace and Luke off on missions that would take more than a day. Luke could return, but Jace had a number of stops. Then even more time passed when Daemon tells her the news. They wouldn't have heard of Luke's death immediately. So the timeline is bad.

    We also really need to see Jace meet with the Starks in Winterfell next season. If we skip all of that in the opener, it's a huge mistake. They are important for the Blacks, and in the endgame.

    So, overall I think Rhaenyra should have just said to Otto, you'll hear my answer soon. The one day thing really bothers me.

    There were some nice small things like the looks on Rhaenys face when different things were going on, and I liked the sadness Daemon displayed when he held the crown as it represented his brother's death.

    I thought it was interesting that Alicent kept the page of that book and had Otto present it to Rhaenyra. That's an unusual thing to do, over all of this time, and suggests that Alicent loves her? Is that the source of some of her rage over the years, and then her willingness to try and make amends at the dinner Viserys had?

    I need to think on this episode a bit. It's not at the same level as the last Viserys one, episode 8, but the quality of the production is so strong that it's still good despite some flaws.
     
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  7. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    This was a powerful episode for me. Rhaenyra has such dignity and purpose when it comes to executing her role as basically a monarch in exile. Such a difference when compared to the Hightowers and their ilk. That, to me, was what put her behind the eight ball as Daemon wanted to strike before the Greens could marshal their forces but she didn’t want to be the one to strike the first blow.

    Leave it to Aemond, that thug, to start the dance in a way that ensures Rhaenyra will now have to fight. He always went too far even as a kid. It looked like he couldn’t fully control Vhagar either. It was heart breaking as we saw that Rhaenyra loved Lucerys so much and she felt that sending her older boys as messengers to the respective Houses would be a relatively safe way for them to participate. That look on her face when Daemon delivered the news of Lucerys death gave me the chills actually. Great acting!

    The scene of Daemon grabbing Rhaenyra by the throat was interesting. Yes, he has affection for his niece but I’ve always believed he saw her as a means to an end to become a joint ruler with her. He was frustrated that she seemed to be thwarting his efforts to strategize the fighting along with being taken back when she started talking about Aegon’s dream of ice and fire realizing he knew nothing about it. At least that’s what it suggested to me. Who knows though. He’s kind of an enigma.

    Sending the book page was a prop meant to lure Rhaenyra and family back to Kings Landing where they would be executed. If Alicent felt anything for her former friend, it was a shared fear for their children if an armed conflict should erupt. Why did she keep the page? When Rhaenyra ripped it from the book, didn’t Alicent say something about how displeased the septa would be if she found out? Maybe it was a message meant to convey that she could have told but never did but IMO the Hightowers are not to be trusted. Otto probably told her to look for something that would gain Rhaenyra’s confidence.
     
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  8. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Another thing I meant to mention is they had stark bookends to the season. We started with Aemma who had no agency of what was going on around her. She didn't even know what was happening when they were holding her down on the bed. Contrast that to Rhaenyra who not only has full control, and power, but she's handling the birth on her own. Nice job there.

    I just don't think they earned that scene with Daemon. It was as abrupt to me as the deaths of Laena and Harwin. It's always felt, even when Rhaenyra was younger, that she had the power over him. He always backed down to her as early as the scene with the egg. And she was the one to push the relationship and marriage, and at the funeral of his wife no less. I'm not being critical of her, but the most interesting dynamic for me was Daemon is this dangerous person to most others, but around close family (even Viserys) he's different. He still recognizes Jace as the heir too.

    I read where some of the writers on the show are bothered that fans like Daemon, which is a really weird thing for them to say. The editing felt off in that episode too, with some Dragonstone scenes. I don't care if they want someone to break bad, or show another side to them, but don't be heavy handed.

    Playing Monday morning quarterback though on the choices that were made, I think the biggest mistake was sending Lucerys. He was too young for that job. Rhaenys would've been a good choice, since she's related to them by blood. Perhaps she wouldn't want to be that hands on, but even Daemon would've been a better move. While Borros is to blame for letting Aemond leave so quickly after Lucerys, he did ask if they could offer anyone in marriage, like Aemond did. It's leaves a crack open in the door. If Daemon was there he could've offered a future marriage with his eldest son with Rhaenyra.. With war on the horizon it would be a good bet for Borros to link his House to a kid that won't be in the middle of the conflict.

    With Vhagar looming he might not have changed course though. But I'm sure Daemon would've also reminded him they had many more dragons.

    Also, I think one way to buy time and test the authenticity of the Hightowers would've been to ask Otto to bring Alicent back so she could talk to her one on one. Last we left them she wanted to make amends etc.

    While Daemon was made out to be unreasonable in pushing everyone on a war footing, he was right in terms of preparation and reaching out to the other Houses. The Greens had the benefit of time, which is one reason Lucerys was killed. They were ahead of the game. I agree though with Rhaenyra not wanting to throw the first punch.

    It's sad too. This all could've been resolved with Rhaenyra's earlier idea of marrying Jace to Helaena.
     
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  9. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, Jace and Luke seem to us to be too young to be participating in the “war effort” but this was a medievalesque society where girls were married and expected to birth children and boys to fight as soon as they reached puberty. They were sent as envoys rather than warriors and while sometimes messengers are killed it’s usually seen as an unjust action.

    Rhaenyra failed to read Borros correctly thinking he would give her son a warm welcome not realizing she needed to bring a gift or bribe for his support. Daemon was too valuable to send as he was the brains behind their theatre of operations. Rhaenys had already volunteered to patrol the gullet on Meleys which was extremely important as well.

    It was unfortunate that Aemond happened to get to Storm’s End first with an offer of marriage. With four daughters, the price was right. Jace is going to make out much better, as we should see in season two, when he reaches the North. I’m sure if Rhaenyra had any inkling that there would be danger, she would have sent one of the knights or maybe a maester to deliver her message.
    Maybe Storm’s End would have only gotten the raven if she had known the Greens had made such strides in winning Borros to their side and that Vhagar was in residence. Where are the Whisperers at Dragonstone when you need them? ;)

    Readers know how this plays out and Luke’s death is only the beginning for both sides of the family, unfortunately.
     
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  10. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Jace though is not only older but more mature, so I didn't really have a problem with him going. He probably should've just done all three stops, and not just two. I bet if he's at Storm's End that aside from just calling him a bastard, Aemond just lets him go. Also, if your Borros you could consider that a slight that you get the second son, and the other places are visited by the heir. Not taking his side, because he's a jackass, but it proves his point that he's been disregarded.

    I would really like to see a lot of time spent on Jace in Winterfell in the opener. We're going to have such a focus on battles etc that the key points where Houses join and we have the politics involved can't be casually glossed over just to move onto the next big event. I would focus on that and then Aemond's return to King's Landing. My fear is they just rush into Blood and Cheese in that episode and we get less of the character building stuff. I think that can wait a bit. Also give Helaena some more scenes that draw the audience closer to her. Perhaps she's the only one Aemond reveals the truth to about what happened with Luke. That would add more depth to all that occurs later too.

    We have three more seasons and they need to buildup to certain events better than they did in Season 1. I'll judge them more harshly in this regard now that we're on the primary timeline.
     
  11. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    I’m not sure even Jace could have pacified Borros who was described as being temperamental, even belligerent. I think he’s also illiterate cause his maester had to read Rhaenyra’s message to him. He accepted a second son with Aemond but then again, Aegon ll was already married.

    If Jace had showed up instead of Luke, Borrors would have laid the same proposition to him of which he would have had to answer honestly that he too was already engaged. You’re probably right though that Aemond wouldn’t have been so triggered upon seeing him. What boggles my mind is that Aemond seems to forget that he was just as much to blame for what happened to him as he was about to brain his cousin(?) with a rock and Luke struck out to save her. Should he have used his knife? Probably not but Aemond was older and stronger and he was reacting in the moment.

    if they stick to the text, like Larys, Borrors will eventually face the consequences of his decision that day….as Will Aemond.

    *My thought is that they better start aging up Rhaenyra and Daemon’s sons cause they have a big part to play eventually.

    I agree with you that they have an opportunity to get this story line right and I hope they do spend some more time with character development.
     
    #8371 purriwinkle, Oct 27, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2022
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  12. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    I agree, with all the head spinning time jumps they could've done better in at least making the kids a bit older. The whole timeline thing is the weakest aspect of the show.

    I think they would've been best served in ending the season with Daemon and Rhaenyra's wedding, which was episode 7. That would've given then 3 episodes to fill in the blanks with Rhaenyra's life with Harwin and Daemon with Laena. Their deaths then would've been more earned, and that would've been our final 2 episodes, 3 deaths and the fake death of Laenor, along with Aemond claiming Vhagar.

    Then when you start Season 2, you begin with the final Viserys episode and they could've aged up all the kids to where they want them for the Dance.

    George has said he wanted a time period showing Jahaerys and Baelon and the road that led to Viserys being chosen. Usually his ideas are better than the showrunners, but in this case I'm glad they didn't do it. That would've been too much with all the time skips.

    It's going to be a long wait now. The earliest we'll see the show is spring of 2024. I'm both excited for it, and a little uneasy. I think we'll know early on how well they're going to bring the entire story together. If they rush into events it's just going to be one spectacle after another, like a Jerry Bruckheimer film.
     
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  13. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    The pre-production began in the UK this week for Season 2 of House of the Dragon. Filming is set to start sometime in March and will take approximately 8 months to complete. So with all the post production work, we're looking at a spring 2024 premiere if all goes well.
     
  14. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Filming has been delayed now until April 17th. The rumor is that George is doing rewrites on some of the scripts. The bad news is that the spring release date might not happen. I wouldn't count it out yet, but it'll be tight. Maybe early summer?

    The good news is that George is closely involved and saw things he wanted revised. So we're less likely to see Game of Thrones style mistakes. The glass is half empty approach would say that they're making a mess of things and Martin is trying to fix it. But Season 1 was so good that I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until I see differently. I believe he's just consulted regularly and a lot of it has to do with character motivations and directions and not the quality of the storytelling itself.
     
  15. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Some updates. Season 2 has been cut from 10 to 8 episodes. They say it's to spread out some of the primary events in the series.

    The next spinoff is going to be of Aegon's Conquest. They're going to have a movie possibly, that will be the bridge to the series. Would love it if they showed Old Valyria in that film.
     
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  16. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Good video video that sums up Martin and the books. @purriwinkle I love the comments George made in there to Stephen King.

     
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  17. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    I enjoyed the video too. I really hope we’re close to at least the next novel, Winds…., but time will tell as I get the impression he’s overextended himself. Thanks for the update. I haven’t been on due to an extremely busy spring but will try to check in more often.
     
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  18. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    I hope he's getting close too. Once we get an actual release date I'm going to read A Dance with Dragons again. It's been so long and my mind has been polluted by the show. There are so many little things, and numerous characters, that to fully enjoy Winds I'm going to need to refresh my memory on it all.

    I'll sometimes pull up the board without logging in and check if anyone has posted first, but it's been very quiet here.
     
  19. dicsonl4893

    dicsonl4893 New Member

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    Hold onto your seat, because this is a story you won't want to miss! I've uncovered a revolutionary game-changer for my gaming channel, all thanks to an extraordinary YouTube promotion service! As a true gaming enthusiast, my passion for sharing epic gameplays and strategies has always burned bright. However, making my mark in the vast galaxy of gaming content was as challenging as conquering the most formidable in-game boss.
     

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