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Morgan's way of thinking and why he is right

Discussion in 'Episode 607 - Heads Up' started by Zombie_Rhino, Nov 23, 2015.

  1. Backspace

    Backspace New Member

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    I think this is a bit of an oversimplification, but not too far from the mark:

    Morgan is trying to justify his own existence. After what he did (murdering everyone he came across in clear and begging Eastman to kill him because his own life seemed worthless) why does he deserve to return to society? Why does he deserve to live?

    The simple answer of "all life is precious" is something he clings to because it changed him but also because it justifies his continued existence. In a world where you've lost everything and everyone you hold dear it would be easy to give up (remember he was pleading with Eastman to kill him).

    So if he can't explain why the wolf is redeemable then he can't explain his own redemption.

    The irony here is that Rick doesn't know Morgan as well as he thinks he does. Morgan isn't safe or trustworthy. This whole situation with the 5 people he let go and with the alpha wolf clearly shows that. He is dangerous because of his ignorance rather than any maliciousness.

    This also goes back to the disagreement Daryl and Rick have about recruiting new people into Alexandria: how do you know who you can really trust?
     
    #41 Backspace, Nov 24, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015
  2. Zombie_Rhino

    Zombie_Rhino Well-Known Member

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    i agree that people should know the situation and him keeping this dangerous wolf locked up without anyone knowing is not the right way to go about it. im sure that he feels they would step in and kill the wolf if they knew he was still alive inside that house. if more people supported his rehabilitation efforts, perhaps he would feel more comfortable telling them. I'm not saying how he is going about this is right (possibly putting others in danger), but I still feel that on the surface you have to give people a chance to change. Perhaps the wolf's response to Morgan about how he was going to kill everyone is enough to end the leniency you give someone like this.
     
  3. Zombie_Rhino

    Zombie_Rhino Well-Known Member

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    This world changes everyone in some way or another - it's inevitable. You said yourself that everyone changed. So, if that is the case, why isn't there a way to get back to what you once were? I feel that there has to be a path for each person to get back to what they were and everyone deserves some chance of that.

    First, the audience never really got to see all of the way Morgan was when he lost it. We got a glimpse when Rick went back into town and again when he killed the two people in the woods before meeting Eastman. I don't think you can apply those situations to the way he has been throughout this whole process. Maybe when his son died he changed into a maniac more like that of the wolf. The woods scene was more of him just being paranoid and feeling those people were threats - but back in town he had his own setup and was not in an unknown territory, yet he setup all these traps to kill humans.



    I don't agree with your assessment about Rick and Shane being so different. Yes, Shane cared a great deal for Lori and Carl, but his biggest beef Rick was over his leadership skills and how things should be done in this world. That's where the two of them clashed the greatest and why Shane thought he should be leader and tried to kill Rick.

    Ok - Nicholas is not a psychopath like the wolves are, but he still tried to KILL Glenn! He shot the guy because he called him out on his weaknesses and put him in his place. He literally tried to murder someone, but because he has a conscience about it, that's ok? I wouldn't want someone like that living with me any more than I would want a wolf locked up in a random house in Alexandria if I were you.
     
  4. Zombie_Rhino

    Zombie_Rhino Well-Known Member

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    I still tend to disagree that current Rick and Shane are much different - but that is neither here nor there because I don't think I will be able to convince you otherwise and the fact is that they came from different places with how long the ZA has been going on for, what they have seen, who was still alive, etc. so it's a tough apples to apples comparison.

    I do agree that Morgan should not put his values above everyone else and try to do something like rehabilitate that wolf if he puts others at risk. I do not like that part of the whole equation.

    I also am with you on the last part about how everyone talks about how they would be in this situation or what they would do. Sorry to tell everyone, but most likely you will be a walker and not around to make a decision like this!
     
  5. Brother AJ

    Brother AJ New Member

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    As much as I like him, I simply can't agree with Morgan's decision to keep the Wolf captive a secret although I do understand and sympathize with his moral struggle. What's interesting to note is that Morgan's "intervention" team didn't really have answers to the complex questions that he presented to them. The truth is that how Rick and co decide to save or not save someone is rather arbitrary. Rick would've certainly killed Morgan for stabbing him before had he not known him, and also would've likely left Aaron and Daryl to die had they been strangers. All of which is to say that they generally don't take risks unless it involves someone they care about and respect. Morgan is trying his best not to be biased toward who he saves, but he simply has to realize that not everyone can be redeemable if he wants to continue to exist and protect those that are around him.

    And a big LOL to those of you that are so quick to judge and condemn Morgan while you sit and reside in your comfortable homes and generally safe society. Let's see you experience the suffering, pain, death, and trauma that Morgan has gone through and still behave and act differently than he did, or wonder why anyone would actually want to try and preserve life. Like others have said though you'd probably be too dead to ever approach such a moral quandary. :zombies_lol: An alternate, and I believe correct, character interpretation of Morgan is that even though he makes mistakes he actually shows immense strength in wanting to still preserve mercy and compassion even when the world has gone to shit. Putting aside the issue with the Wolf, I believe Morgan can still provide a much needed moral compass that the group hasn't had for quite some time now.
     
    #45 Brother AJ, Nov 25, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
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  6. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    Ummm... Shane was a bit deranged here and you say he was not selfish, but wanting Carl and Lori for himself was his defining characteristic in the latter half of S2. It wasn't protecting everyone, it wasn't to be the leader, it was to get Carl and Lori. He lost his mind over that. Rick's poor decision making assisted in that, but far less than Lori's constant mixed signals and the weight of the Apocalypse in general.

    Also, he never would have been able to lead a group because he was unbalanced to begin with. He never would have been inclusive to strangers who would bring value and his mind was steadily degrading.

    Rick for all things considered, is still a good guy doing his best for his people. I didn't say he was super smart, but he's a good guy and has fully woken up to reality as time has gone on.

    In no way is he the opposite extreme of Morgan or a lunatic like Morgan. The opposite extreme of Morgan is the Wolf. Rick is not a murderer, Rick has only killed in defense of himself or others. Morgan was an uncontrolled murderer and Morgan exists now in a coping mechanism to deal with that guilt and validate his existence, the Wolf is his direct counter part as a controlled murderer that flat out enjoys it.
     
  7. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    This is all basic common sense and on point...

    The incredible thing is that Morgan sympathizers don't get it, don't see that it's not all black/white and is an immense shade of grey upon which good judgement must be made and don't even understand the extreme examples they are trying to use to quantify their idea's.
     
  8. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    And a big LOL to those that have been obliterated in arguments pertaining to this subject within the realm of the Zombie Apocalypse and a big LOL to those who sit and reside in their comfortable homes but then condemn Rick and the group's actions and necessary decisions after all they have experienced and ALL of the hostilities that surround them.

    Let's see you experience all of the pain, suffering and death that Rick or Carol have experienced and then not become a bit more cold and hardened(you know, adapted to that reality) to protect themselves and those still alive that are closest to them.
     
  9. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    Then let's talk about it, because I find little comparison other than the current Rick will pull the trigger to threats like Shane would have in S1-2. Other than that their dispositions, way of going about things, mental health and self serving nature are opposites.

    You did point out that it's different times in the Apocalypse, which is important. Rick's currently operating in 2 years since the global outbreak and Shane in S2 was operating 68-82 days after the global outbreak and they had not seen, nor been through the amount of stuff that was coming after.

    The biggest differences between Rick and Shane is that Shane was totally self serving and Rick is mostly selfless, which he does attribute to this children. Shane was mentally degrading very quickly and one of the biggest notes of that is how he had the gun pointed at Rick in S1, showing a lapse in mental clarity, due to Rick arriving and that ending his relationship with Lori.

    People like to point out that Shane's leadership in S2 was superior because he'd be willing to pull the trigger on threats, but Shane's main goal was to selfishly get to Carl and Lori and that's where he mentally degraded to a shell of his former society self, combined with the Apocaypse. He was willing to murder Rick to get them.

    Rick has never murdered anybody and by murder I mean kill another human that was not a hostile threat to him or others. Rick also doesn't show the disposition to do it and he shows a hard, but still attempted inclusiveness with others that seems harder than it is due to stresses. Shane was willing to murder people.

    Also we want to criticize Rick for poor decisions but Shane was beyond hot headed and wanted to take them all to Ft Benning, he was losing his mind over someone else's wife and this was all before the real shit hit the fan. He didn't have the mental fortitude to take them to where Rick has taken them, flaws and all.

    Shane's actions were self driven, Rick's are selfless driven. They are not comparable. This needs to be put to bed.

    A characteristic of ruthlessness when dealing with threats doesn't mean equal. The other bad guys are ruthless to threats like the Governor, who offensively took out threats and killed anybody in his way, compared to defensively taking out threats like the main group has.
     
  10. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    Not only should he tell them, it's the morally responsible thing to do. His sneaking around with it, especially after the meeting where he admitted he doesn't know right from wrong anymore and has lost control of reality in the past was the time to tell and anything other than that is a betrayal of your friends and putting the life of the wolf over the life of innocents, potentially.

    I can't understand why anyone wouldn't take huge issue with that. If your neighbor was housing some kind of immediate dire threat in a cage in his garage without notifying anybody under similar notions, I'd expect the community to be completely pissed off.

    It falls into the category of violating other people's basic rights in the community. It shows why "All Life is Precious" is too flawed to exist in reality - because it fails to protect life that actually is precious in the grandiose notion that all of it can be saved. It's retardation and I'd go as far as to say perversion of basic altruism.

    I think so too, but that wouldn't be a realistic option.
    The ultimate thing the writers can do to show that Morgan is a mental midget and an overall idiot is for the Wolf to cause disaster, them to exile him and then him to return to being an uncontrolled killer by himself in the woods.

    Morgan's weak decisions aren't just current. His inability to cap his zombie wife led to his son being bitten, which led to his PTSD killer mode and then led to this crazy nonsense you're viewing now. Morgan's clock is ticking, he's a failure.
     
  11. mtito914

    mtito914 Active Member

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    Really, it dosen't look like Rick is going to be dealing with "Morgan and the Wolf" anytime soon.. The walls are down and we are now in the mad dash for survival mode..
     
  12. Blueman

    Blueman Well-Known Member

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    Morgan is currently ticking off a lot of viewers. And I bet the writers know it and they do it on purpose. This character Morgan has been demanded for a very long time. So, the writers cannot be that stupid to write an 'idiotic' Morgan and then kill him off. If so, then the writers are more 'idiotic' than Morgan. Hence, I bet they are going to develop the story somehow in favour of Morgan's. But this cannot be too ridiculous like the Wolf does an 180 degree change. It has to be less subtle so that it will being some credit to Morgan to build up that character. This Morgan character is not written as a villain and so his death (whenever) should not be something to be cheered upon by a large number of show fans. I think, it will be similar for Gabriel as well. He appeared on the show as a coward and if he dies as a coward without change, then it will be boring and predictable.

    And if the show follows the comics, we might eventually see Rick's adapting Morgan's style as well because
     
    #52 Blueman, Nov 25, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2015
  13. Brother AJ

    Brother AJ New Member

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    Wow. Someone has quite the inflated ego now don't they?

    For clarity's sake I'll post a link to what I assume you're referring to here which is my lack of response on this thread:

    http://www.walkingdeadforums.com/forum/f691/change-mind-morgan-131951-17.html

    Because, of course, the only reason why someone wouldn't respond to an opponent on social media is that they were bested by that person's arguments, correct? Get a ****ing grip man. I didn't respond because A) I haven't had the time nor energy to go through your ridiculously long point by point breakdown of what I said B) I grew tired of you constantly either not understanding or blatantly misrepresenting my position and finally C) I pretty much just plain don't like you at this point and grow tired of conversing with you (this post you made here perfectly demonstrates why this is so). But hey, by all means, continue to believe that I didn't respond because my arguments were "obliterated" by you if it allows you to maintain your translucent sense of superiority.

    This post is also a prime example of how you misrepresent my position. Not once did I condemn and judge Rick and the main group for what they've done, and I sincerely doubt you'd be able to quote me saying anything like that. I have expressed that I worry about their deteriorating mental state and that I'm concerned that they are aiming their ideals a bit too low, but never did I try and undermine their experiences nor claim that their actions are not understandable. I have the utmost sympathy for every single one of these characters, and love all of them quite dearly by this point. That's not to suggest that I don't become frustrated with them however.
     
  14. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    No, not at all. I'd say quite the contrary here. Exemplifying my point is your post in this thread:

    "And a big LOL to those of you that are so quick to judge and condemn Morgan while you sit and reside in your comfortable homes and generally safe society."

    ^ Considering your positions on the subject, this is arrogant. It indicates that you think you are far more enlightened on the matter and insults the perceived sheltered status of show watchers that don't like Morgan's character.


    I have a grip. I've attempted to help you get one. No negativity here on my end. You get upset and grow distaste of people for holding logical views in regards to a mentally off TV character and not espousing current Western humanist jargon in situations of raw survival.

    You had the time to post supremely long essay's that went off into differing directions and diversions, which needed to be broken down point by point if anyone was going to continue the subject. It doesn't take that long to reply, you're on here lurking and posting much of the same kind of material in different threads.

    I understand everything and it's again the contrary here - you misinterpreting others or turning a blind eye to logical opposing views. Learning is good, being wrong is fine - try it sometime.

    And lol "I don't like you". Childish. I found it quite amusing that you went on a PC crusade involving Morgan's character, posted a bunch of emotional humanist material involving brutal Zombie Apocalypse conditions, only to have the points of view logically debunked and then continue to post more of it. Other than that how could I say "I don't like you", I don't know you, you're just a poster on a forum about a show I am obsessed with.

    And I didn't say "I obliterated you", I said "you were obliterated" on those subjects. Others debunked your points as well, the writers of the show have shown that Morgan doesn't even know right from wrong, which alone debunks several of your major points you were trying to put out.

    If anything my intentions were to help you see the flaws in that line of thinking. No negativity, again. But you want to assert I'm displaying an ego when you're defense techniques include insinuating to others that they're clueless to psychology, live sheltered comfortable lives and that their posts read like social darwinism.

    No? I've seen quite a few posts highly critical of everything Rick and his group's current way of going about things. Here's one on this sub-forum from the Ron thread:

    ^^^ It's cool if you only like or identify with the mentally deranged characters. Everyone's got their cup of tea.
     
  15. Brother AJ

    Brother AJ New Member

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    That post was to COMBAT the arrogance I saw actually, including from you, as you all demean, insult, and overall rip into his character when it's clear you cannot say that you wouldn't behave the same way had you been in Morgan's shoes. How could any of you know how you would behave in this extremely brutal environment when most of you have never experienced something even remotely like it? I don't think I'm "more enlightened", but I do think I am more understanding than many of you, and that's kind of hard to argue against considering the fact you're all constantly shitting on the man.

    Childish? Um.. no. Adults tell each other they dislike one another all the time, and it's quite necessary to do this so you don't waste your precious time talking to or being around people you don't care for. It's also a big part of why I didn't respond to you, which is why I brought it up. It's nothing too personal really, I just don't care for several of your worldviews.

    And now you're telling me what I have the time and energy for? LOL! **** off. Deflate that head a bit. You don't know shit about me, and you actually have the gall to say something like that? Perhaps I TECHNICALLY had the time available to respond, but there have been much more pressing matters in my life to attend to. Frankly, conversing with you has been mentally draining and I had no desire to expend anymore energy on something that wasn't even bringing me pleasure.

    I did, however, have the time and the energy to post shorter comments in different threads. WTF are you expecting from me here anyway? To stop posting on this subject ever again? Am I supposed to ask, "Oh... pretty please Ionut? Can't I post in the other topics even though you and others disagreed with me on one in particular without you jumping on my ass for it? Plewse?" There are other people on this site with opinions if you didn't notice. You can just leave me the hell alone if you can't handle the fact that I will continue to comment on this subject because I'm not putting up with this bullshit in threads from now on. Just respond to what I post, and nothing else is necessary. If you object to a particular point I brought up in this thread then say so, otherwise I'm not interested. I'm certainly not interested in a pissing contest on who was right and who was wrong at any given point in time.

    And I know that this may be hard for you to accept, but simply because you find that my views were "debunked" doesn't make that the reality. It's only your perception that this is the case. You disagreed with me on several things, but that doesn't mean you were right no matter how many times you claim "logic" was on your side. I was actually thinking that clearly many of your views were proven to be wrong, but obviously you feel that isn't true. You even try to tell me why I have "distaste" for you! That it's because you had "logical views." Good grief! Stop trying to mind read because you're awful at it.

    Er... but there are clearly people on this forum that don't understand very much about psychology or psychiatry for that matter, most people on here do live comfortable sheltered lives, including myself, that make it difficult for us to empathize with the conditions of the ZA, and your earlier posts did read to me as a promotion of Social Darwinism at least within the context of the show. Those are facts, so I'm not sure what that has to do with my ego... :zombies_confused:

    No, it's quite clear that you don't understand my position, and that's likely why you feel like I was "debunked." It's like you're pulling shit out of your ass with this point. I have disagreed with some of their decisions, but I have not condemned them which is what you were accusing me of. Understanding the actions of Ron does not mean I condemn Rick for what he did to his father, but only that they make sense to me. I disagree with how they handled Pete, but I also completely sympathize with the fact that they felt he needed to be killed.

    LOL! Are you kidding me right now? Don’t tell me whom I ONLY like or identify with. That's actually another decision that I alone can make. You’re so deluded on this matter though that it hurts. NEWS FLASH! Morgan is quite lucid at this point, and the only mental illness he has been confirmed to have is PTSD. PTSD does not cause people to spontaneously believe that all life is precious. So, unless you are able to accurately diagnose another illness he suffers from (crazyitis?) then he’s clearly not mentally ill or deranged. I'm so tired of hearing that asinine shit from you...:zombies_rolleyes:
     
    #55 Brother AJ, Nov 26, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2015
  16. raccoon city

    raccoon city Member

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    I don't think he is right in his way of thinking but I'm definitely still a Morgan fan. Without Morgan Rick would probably be dead, and many of the characters have hone through changes, so of course he can change too.
     
  17. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    A wall of emotionalism.

    Oh well, happy posting.
     
  18. mtito914

    mtito914 Active Member

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    You have your Head so far up your Psycho Bullshit ass it's not funny..... When someone who has already killed innocent people says to you that they will kill you and your family if he gets free, that person Must be killed....Immediately.
     
  19. Zombie_Rhino

    Zombie_Rhino Well-Known Member

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    On the surface, I can see your opinions about Shane - but I still tend to disagree. He may have seemed like he didn't care about anyone else but Lori and Carl, but I think that was just what he projected forward to the audience. He said he wanted to leave the group, but he never could actually do it because I think he did care about the others. Maybe you will not believe that, but I do. The biggest sign that makes me feel that Shane was better than people give him credit for was in the fact that he did NOT kill Rick. Yes, he had thoughts of that, but this ZA will do that to people and give them crazy thoughts. The truth is that when push came to shove, he couldn't kill Rick. He didn't have that in him to kill his best friend. He lowered his gun which allowed Rick to stab him with the knife. In fact, I would say that Rick was more ruthless than Shane in that moment as I truly feel they could have found a way to coexist. Shane was giving in, he was lowering his weapon and accepting what Rick had to say to him. Perhaps that could have been his turning point - but we will never know.
     
  20. jdawg011

    jdawg011 Member

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    Sure, but when one of those precious lives takes away 50 precious lives, whose life is more precious?
     

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