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Rick Killing the POW Saviors

Discussion in 'Episode 814 - Still Gotta Mean Something' started by Neuropyramidal, Apr 1, 2018.

  1. Dnae

    Dnae Well-Known Member

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    Innocent people?

    The only remaining innocent people are Judith and Baby Gracie.

    These men who were ready to go back to Hilltop were opportunists. Running with Jared seemed like the thing to do when the opportunity presented itself - so they ran.

    Then they captured Rick and Morgan and IF they really wanted to go back to Hilltop they could have prevented Jared from taking Rick and Morgan hostage.

    Seemed to me they got a little antsy about their prospects of following Jared and that only was amplified by the realization that a horde was about to descend down on them. Getting back into Hilltop was merely their next "opportunity". I fully believe that if Negan would have shown up and mowed down the walkers, they would have yet again changed their tune and pledged their loyalty to Negan.

    How many times have so many members on this forum bitched about Rick giving Jadis more than one chance? At least a kajillion times. And now that Rick is finished with giving people chances people are still bitching.

    Rick did not kill these people with pleasure. Rick in that moment saw it as the only option in order to keep "his" people safe. He expressed that realization to Daryl while visiting Glenn's grave. That he was finished worrying about other people, that "his" people are the only ones that mattered to him. Rick was preventing these people from possibly reuniting with Negan at some point and being part of a group that could cause real harm or death to his family. Rick had no reason to believe in their instantaneous allegiance to Hilltop et al.

    Right? Not in our world of reality. But very plausible to be regarded as right, or at the very least a necessary evil, in a world where lawlessness is the norm and you protect what is yours and at all costs.

    This is a crossroads for Rick.

    He returned to Hilltop, unnerved by what he did in that bar. He has now read Carl's letter.
     
    #21 Dnae, Apr 2, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
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  2. 92Pony

    92Pony Active Member

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    Ugh. That was my immediate thought as well, and what I don't want to see happen! I want Rick to stay hard-core, bent on revenge. I want to see him end Negan in some violent, bloody, grotesque act. I want to see blood and guts, and see Negan crying for Lucille as his eyeballs pop out. :eek::D
    I don't want to see farmer Rick ever again. I don't want to see Rick holding the key to a cell with Negan in it. Ugh. I fear that is what this is setting up.
     
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  3. Lindigo

    Lindigo Well-Known Member

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    Rick had already read Carl's letter to Negan asking for peace, so he already knows Carl will say the same thing to him, along with whatever else. He just wanted to go on that killing spree.

    I was really horrified. I jumped and gasped when Rick axed the first guy. I didn't see that coming at all. Everything is always so fluid, I thought Rick would be able to bring in some of the good Saviors who were helping him out, even though he had gone out on a hunt to kill all of them.

    I could have seen Maggie executing them. She had told Negan she would.
     
  4. yuke

    yuke Member

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    It wasn't a clear decision for Rick to keep his promise to the Saviours. They may have only freed him out of immediate self-preservation to help fight the walkers. Who know if after they were done killing the walkers that they could have turned around and killed Rick.

    Also, Rupert was still alive. Who knows if Rupert could have turned the Saviours back to being loyal to Negan.
     
  5. EZD

    EZD Well-Known Member

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    Rupert?
     
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  6. yuke

    yuke Member

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    The hell? I meant Jared.
     
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  7. Iris

    Iris New Member

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    Hi, new here, and not sure where to post this so hope this is ok here. I recently finished binge watching this show. First of all, binge watching is not healthy. Secondly, I developed PTSD watching 6-16 and 7-1, that was too much. I don't give a flying freak about zombies, this show is not so much about that, hence why I think more women than guys watch the show (which is why it is weird that all the recaps seem to be written by guys).

    I am not as disturbed by the show itself, as the reactions from the audience. Watching talking dead last night, I don't understand how Negan is "sympathetic" and "humanized" because he compares his head bashing bat to his wife. What kind of sick mind is that. How in the world did he and Jadis "connect". She's a dumbass, he's a warped, sick psychopath.

    What Rick did was wrong but this does not remotely make him equivalent to Negan. There is wrong and right and there is false equivalence which can be very scary. It disturbs me to read people saying things like "at least Negan is a man of his word." Yeah, "I give you my word I will rape your wife (yes, his "wives", that is rape)" "I give you my word I will bash your son's skull in" "I give you my word I will burn your face with this iron" I mean, really, how in the world is Rick remotely as twisted as Negan.

    Rick doesn't expect people to kneel, he has loving relationships, he doesn't burn people's faces, people have free will. I, like so many others, am sick of Negan. This storyline has gone on ad infinitum. I fear though that the show will not kill him off. I fear Rick will have an "epiphany" because of Carl and not kill Negan. Rick's epiphany should be that other Saviors can be redeemed, not Negan though. There has to be justice and Negan should be executed. Even if Rick as a leader does not want to kill Negan in order to "honor" Carl, the people should demand justice and ultimately a leader needs to rule with the support of the people.

    Again, I very much fear the show will not kill Negan and if so, I am done. Angela Kang is like a lamb to the slaughter, taking the helm of a sputtering show. The only logical end would be for the walkers to die out as they cannot last forever and for humanity to rise again. That is the good thing about GOT, there will be a conclusion and hopefully major payoff.
     
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  8. Zombie_Rhino

    Zombie_Rhino Well-Known Member

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    This was a little disappointing to see Rick go this route in the episode. They did a great job setting up that scene and it looking like Rick and Morgan were going to work with some of the "good" Saviors in order to beat the herd and get back to Hilltop. I was a little surprised when Rick sprang into action and started killing everyone - mostly because none of those guys really gave him a reason to do so (other than Jared). Most of the others seemed reasonable. Truth be told, Maggie and the rest of the Hilltop really missed out on a huge opportunity the moment when Simon let it be known that those prisoners meant nothing to him. At that time, they should have posed the prisoners with the option of joining Hilltop and leaving the Saviors for good. I would have armed the saviors with hand to hand weapons and had them fight on their side. They could have even planned some type of an undercover mission for them to pretend they were on the Saviors side and then turncoat on them and end the conflict. This could have let them prove their allegiance to a community that is much more forgiving and compassionate than who they worked for prior. Opportunity missed.
     
    #28 Zombie_Rhino, Apr 2, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
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  9. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    This is a little different. Several of these guys very obviously were not happy with being in the Saviors and spoke of going off and doing their own thing and were very annoyed by Jared and his treatment of Rick & Morgan.

    The guy Rick axed and other one who was tossed to the Walkers definitely were redeemable judging from their actions and demeanors. They cut Rick and Morgan free and even stopped a walker from getting Rick --

    How many of the Saviors are just there because they had to be and are completely unhappy being under Negan and his bullshit? Many of the Saviors are bad -- if not the majority, but you also have legitimate instances of decent people that just were surviving and would leave to a less brutal group.

    Rick/Maggie/Rick's people aren't on level with the Savior's for bad deeds as I have posted in the thread with examples, but this was a cold and brutal act.

    Those guys obviously were serviceable and people are indeed a resource.
     
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  10. Dnae

    Dnae Well-Known Member

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    I am sticking to my earlier posts
     
  11. Dnae

    Dnae Well-Known Member

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  12. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    I agree on the Rick/Negan comparison -- not even close. People who think he's comparable or worse in some ways should revisit 6-16 thru 7 where it shows Negan in dictator mode, rather than being in a position of vulnerability as of late.

    Negan is a purpose driven high functioning psychopath, if he doesn't have a use for you, you're not going to get anything resembling "nice". He is not showing compassion here to Jadis and others he's been lighter with -- he is setting them up to be used. Negan is talented with psychological manipulation and has very shallow emotional depth, unlike Rick's group where they feel and connect to people even with all of the killings due to the brutal reality.

    Negan's wrap sheet for bad stuff is pretty damn long -- far longer than Rick's.
     
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  13. Big Pops

    Big Pops New Member

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    Had the "on the fence" Saviors turned on Jared when Rick made his initial offer prior to the horde coming in and he still killed them that would have been wrong in my opinion. But they only jumped on Rick and Morgan's side when it benefited them. They are opportunists who would have jumped ship depending on which way the wind is blowing. Agreed they were put in a no-win situation but people like that in the world they live in cannot be trusted.

    Those who stayed in Hilltop after the breakout are quite possibly redeemable. If Rick starts killing them off without some sort of additional provocation then he is making the wrong choice.
     
  14. Lindigo

    Lindigo Well-Known Member

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    Welcome! I agree it is a story about characters. I am so invested in them now, I will keep watching no matter what happens.

    I think a lot of what happens is driven by the comics. I don't read them, but a lot of people do, and that is the story they have come to watch.

    I agree there is a vast difference between Rick, a good man who is doing his best to survive in this new world, and Negan, a psychopath. Some people think they would be on team Negan if the story had followed him from the beginning, but I know that story would only have repulsed me. 6-16 did drive away a lot of the audience. I think they miscalculated how intolerable sadism is on the screen, as opposed to a few cells in a comic book.

    I think Negan probably will live, and the little moments of "humanizing" him are to justify that. I'm just resigned to it. The show in general is indifferent to consistent characters, and I just :rolleyes: and go right on watching.
     
  15. Biffster

    Biffster Well-Known Member

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    Especially when Rick had just finished waxing eloquent about how a man's word has to mean something.
     
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  16. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    They were very close to doing it and were annoyed by him. They didn't allow Jared to harm Rick/Morgan and were arguing with him about the plan to go back to Negan.

    On the fence is correct, but we're talking both legs in the Hilltop direction while sitting on the fence and post-horde they helped Rick and Morgan. This wasn't a situation like the manipulative guy with the meds that attacked Tara and some of the other Saviors.

    What were they going to do post-horde anyway? Try to kill Rick and Morgan or take them back to Negan when they expressed strong views against doing either prior to the horde showing up when R and M were tied up? Highly unlikely.

    It's not a matter of trust, but a matter of predictable probabilities. Those men were no immediate threat and were very possibly serviceable new manpower for the community.

    It's even more backed up by the one who was executed laying down -- he was showcasing very sad submission and not anger/rage vengeful "**** you" mentality.

    Yes, there's going to be an element of risk when dealing with anybody and for that reason -- the act isn't irredeemable like the Saviors themselves rolling up on communities unprovoked and brutalizing/enslaving the people in them -- but to suggest it wasn't a wrong thing to do, it wasn't a cold and vicious act is incorrect.

    Rick was definitely affected by knowing he did wrong.
     
  17. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    I am typically in the "take the threat out" and ask questions later camp because of how many bad decisions were made with legit threats during the series.

    Up until this point some posters disagreed with how Rick's group adapted and how quickly they were willing to kill, such as Daryl with basically any Savior he was coming across post being tortured by them. I disagree with that -- in that reality if you're reading they're an immediate threat you have to do what you must.

    Maggie popping that mouthy Savior was correct.

    Daryl popping that "surrendering" Savior was correct, even if it seemed cold.

    Tara not killing that meds manipulator Savior almost got herself killed.

    The group having had experience with the Saviors brutality before hand and hearing from other peaceful communities of their brutality utilizing a preemptive strike to try to wipe them out was the right idea -- just awfully executed not knowing the full scale of their manpower and operation.

    That being said, there is a balance here --

    These guys were very obviously no threat and wanted to make a peace deal and possibly join the other side and helped Rick/Morgan.

    I don't know how more clear cut it could have been that they were at least leaned to the altruistic side of the good/bad spectrum.
     
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  18. yuke

    yuke Member

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    In a sense, this was a replay of the prison when Rick and gang "trusted" the prisoners only to have the prisoners turn around and try to kill Rick. The prisoners gave a promise and acted all nice only for them to turn around and try to kill Rick in the middle of a zombie fight. With that having happened in Rick's past, Rick turning on the Saviours would make a lot of sense, better to be safe than sorry.
     
    #38 yuke, Apr 2, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  19. Biffster

    Biffster Well-Known Member

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    Is it just me that finds it weird to describe the choice to kill someone, Saviour or otherwise, as the "correct" thing to do?
     
  20. Lindigo

    Lindigo Well-Known Member

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    I love Canadians. :)
     
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