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Some craziness

Discussion in 'Debaters' started by Morgotha, Feb 28, 2017.

  1. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    It reminds me of this quote by Kissinger: “Every civilization that has ever existed has ultimately collapsed. History is a tale of efforts that failed, or aspirations that weren’t realized. So, as a historian, one has to live with a sense of the inevitability of tragedy.”

    The first time I came around to this view regarding America was the pandemic. I think it showed how broken our society is more than any election. Because you can always explain away a vote due to the economy, the candidates etc, but how people act when you have a crisis that isn't political, but a virus that impacts all of us, really demonstrates what you are.

    One of the problems too is that we never changed our Constitution. We live under what was written by people in the 1700s. Jefferson would be most shocked by this. He thought it should be changed by every generation. But perhaps they made it a little too difficult to alter as well. The super majorities required for amendments are too high. Maybe if Jefferson had not been in France, and had been part of the writing of the Constitution, we would've had something a bit better, more malleable.

    It's wild to think the Roman Republic lasted almost 500 years.

    It's clear though that our system of government needs to change. That's what's required to avoid all of this. But I don't see how you get to that point when there is such a huge divide.
     
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  2. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Two drug traffickers were caught in Calif. with 150,000 fentanyl pills. Fentanyl being widely regarded as the most dangerous illegal drug in the country today. They were released within a couple of *days* from jail without even any bail. Compare that to the Jan. 6th peaceful protestors, some of whom are still in jail, awaiting trial.

    "Two drug traffickers in California who were arrested last week for being in possession of 150,000 fentanyl pills — enough to kill millions of people — were released back onto the streets, officials said.

    Jose Zendejas, 25, and Benito Madrigal, 19, both from Washington, were arrested during a traffic stop-turned-drug bust in Tulare on Friday. They were booked into the Tulare County Pre-Trial Facility on charges of possession, transportation and selling of illegal drugs, officials said.

    In a surprising twist of events, the two inmates were released just days later.

    "The Tulare County Sheriff’s Office received a court order to release both suspects from custody on their own recognizance," officials said.

    The total street value of the 150,000 pills was estimated to be $750,000, according to the sheriff’s office. (Tulare County Sheriff's Office)

    "All inmates booked into Tulare County jails are sent through what is known as the Risk Assessment Process through the Tulare County Probation Department. That ‘Risk Assessment’ is then sent to a judge with the court, who, then, determines whether or not the individual arrested is held on bail or if they are to be released," The Tulare County Sheriff’s Office added."

    https://www.foxnews.com/us/california-drug-traffickers-fentanyl-pills-released
     
    #7482 Morgotha, Jun 28, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2022
  3. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Another disgruntled customer turns murderer. A psycho in NY was upset that he didn't get the amount of duck sauce he felt he was entitled to, and followed the delivery driver for *months*, eventually murdering him. Now his wife was arrested for having a bunch of loaded guns in her apartment as well (illegal in NY?)

    "Husband's crime

    Queens prosecutors said Glenn Hirsch, who has 10 prior sealed arrests, had held an "obsession point of contention" against the restaurant since Nov. 30, 2021, when he believed he had been swindled out of enough duck sauce for his meal. The restaurant manager reported that Glenn Hirsch had been harassing him and other workers for months, including during one incident in which Glenn Hirsch reportedly vandalized the manager’s car and showed up at the restaurant with a gun in January, New York Post reported.

    For about an hour prior to Yan’s murder, police said surveillance video showed the suspect circling the restaurant and then driving his car following Yan before allegedly shooting him to death.

    Wife's "crime"?

    Dorothy Hirsch, the 62-year-old wife of the man accused of gunning down a New York City Chinese food deliveryman amid an ongoing dispute with the restaurant over duck sauce, was arrested on Monday after police found eight guns and more than 200 rounds of ammunition hidden in her Queens apartment, according to a report."

    https://www.foxnews.com/us/nyc-accu...ammunition-discovered-queens-apartment-report
     
    #7483 Morgotha, Jun 28, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2022
  4. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, I don't know why people in NYC bother reporting crimes. This woman has been arrested over 100 times, and has FIVE other pending cases facing her when she was arrested again for shoplifting. She was let out of jail without bail, despite not appearing in court for 27 of her prior arrests.

    How can you interpret this situation other than to say the Dems WANT criminals on the street?


    "A self-described "professional booster" recently arrested for shoplifting in New York City has been released without bail after what may be her 100th arrest, according to a local report.

    Michelle McKelley, 42, was let go on supervised release on Sunday, just one day after police arrested her for allegedly swiping items worth $125 from a Lower Manhattan CVS, the New York Post first reported.

    Manhattan Judge Charlotte Davidson said the charges against McKelley do not qualify for bail under New York state’s 2019 bail reforms, the Post reported. The reforms prohibit bail-setting for most people charged with a misdemeanor or non-violent felony, while maintaining bail for most violent felonies.


    During an appearance in Manhattan Criminal Court on Sunday, the paper reported that prosecutors said McKelley has failed to appear in court 27 times for past arrests and has five other pending cases."

    https://www.foxnews.com/us/nyc-serial-shoplifter-released-without-bail
     
  5. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Pot isn't as benign as it's claimed, from a societal perspective. There's a significant medical cost to use.

    "
    (CNN)Using recreational marijuana is associated with a higher risk of emergency room care and being hospitalized for any reason, a new study has found.

    "Cannabis use is not as benign and safe as some might think," said study author Nicholas Vozoris, assistant professor and clinician investigator in the division of respirology at the department of medicine at the University of Toronto.
    "Our study demonstrates that the use of this substance is associated with serious negative outcomes, specifically, ED (emergency department) visits and hospitalizations," Vozoris said in an email.
    Significant risk of hospitalization
    The study, published Monday in the journal BMJ Open Respiratory Research, looked at national health records data for over 30,000 Ontario, Canada, residents between the ages of 12 and 65 over a six-year period.
    When compared with people who did not use marijuana, cannabis users were 22% more likely to visit an emergency department or be hospitalized, the study revealed.

    Respiratory problems from smoking weed was the second leading reason users seek emergency care, the study found.
    The finding held true even after adjusting the analysis for over 30 other confounding factors, including other illicit drug use, alcohol use and tobacco smoking.
    "Physical bodily injury was the leading cause of emergency department visits and hospitalizations among the cannabis users, with respiratory reasons coming in a close second," Vozoris said."

    https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/27/heal...ies-hospitalization-study-wellness/index.html
     
  6. rabscuttle1

    rabscuttle1 Well-Known Member

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    Since I believe the universe works in cycles on all levels...I don't believe there is any stopping it. All we can do is try and control the collapse to be as peaceful as possible. Unfortunately, history shows no collapse is without violence and destruction on some level. It's not going to be good. We're in for some dark and bloody times ahead.
     
  7. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Both of you have insightful observations that sent me to look into this more. The divisions we’ve all observed, and the selfishness of the population are but symptoms of what Glubb describes as a civilization in decline. I ran across this article that not only discusses each stage but gives suggestions on how we might be able to avert catastrophe , even though you both are almost/are resigned to what you see as inevitable. If you get a chance, you might like to read this article. I think his points boil down to not how government should be changed (although updating is not without it’s merits) but it’s mainly the people who have to change, if I understood the article’s premise correctly.

    https://quillette.com/2020/09/30/pasha-glubb-and-avoiding-the-fate-of-empires/
    There’s too many goodies to post everything but here’s a small example of what the author had to say at one point….


    Nevertheless, there are still reasons to want to perpetuate Western hegemony. These need not be purely self-interested, either. Despite the hypocritical rhetoric of recent American imperialism, we can still uncynically argue that a world order based on liberal, European values is preferable to one centred on aggressive Russian expansionism, or on Chinese Han-centric authoritarian capitalism. While many Western radicals might welcome the decline of Western hegemony, we ought to pause for a moment to consider what its collapse would mean in practice for progressive values across the globe. Glubb noted that the later “Age of Intellect” is marked by increased equality for women and cultural minorities—rights which disappear when power is passed to a rising power in its patriarchal “Age of Pioneers” (compare, for instance, women’s rights in Iran and Afghanistan as they passed from Western and Soviet hegemony into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists).

    Averting the West’s collapse, therefore, needn’t be a reactionary undertaking—in fact, although it is rarely recognised as such, it is vital to the progressive project. Glubb’s language—his praise of “manly” values, his scepticism of immigration and the welfare state, his criticism of intellectualism—certainly makes him look like an ally of the populist nationalists who have arisen in the past decade in reaction to the West’s perceived decadence. The rhetoric of the Right over recent years—with its condemnation of immigrants (“Build the wall!” “Stop the boats!”), and reflexive opposition to welfare, intellectuals, elites, and expertise—might just have been taken from a superficial reading of Glubb. The central populist idea, conscious or not, seems to be that if we could just roll back the “Age of Intellect” and its “soft” values, we could recapture the golden “Age of Affluence.”

    But a more careful reading of Glubb reveals that such a strategy treats only the symptoms of the decline, not its cause. Glubb was quite clear—it is greed, and the transition of a culture from “service to selfishness” that marks a nation’s tipping point into decadence and decline. The rise of intellectualism can be better understood as an early reaction to this decline. As a society’s merchants become its leaders, and material wealth its chief measure of worth, it is almost inevitable that many in the succeeding generations will question the point of accumulating for its own sake. It is pretty well-established that, beyond a certain level of comfort, greater wealth doesn’t make us happier, and it is only natural that a society that has grown up in affluence will look for something more. For that reason, it is not surprising that the values of the “intellectual” generations—creativity, exploration, spontaneity, freedom, and truthfulness—should more closely mirror those warriors of the Age of Conquest than the businessmen of the Ages of Commerce and Affluence.

    I rather like something that doesn’t candy coat the situation but also goes on to make suggestions as to how we can avert complete catastrophe, such as…

    What lessons can we draw, then, from Glubb’s account of the Fate of Empires? Two things stand out. First, the need for a value higher than money. Second, the need for a spirit of service and self-sacrifice to a cause of which we are all a part. We need to stop thinking like businesspeople, and to stop treating the acquisition of wealth as the measure of success, both as individuals and as a society. And we need to actively replace it, with something that binds a community together and gives it meaning.

    There’s more. Check it out. Good article, IMO. The question then becomes, Is there a collective will to make any of the necessary changes? I kind of think when people start going down a rabbit hole though it’s pretty hard to pull them back.
     
    #7487 purriwinkle, Jun 29, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2022
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  8. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    A lot to unpack from that piece. There are things in there that I've also thought are key, like the point about some sort of national service that isn't necessarily military. When I hear stuff like free college or absolve debt etc, I always think those sort of things would go well if we attached service to it. It should not be a one way street.

    To the bigger point though, I don't see how you can change our society from one of greed to one of service. It's part of capitalism too, and you could see it in the 1800s as the country was built. Naturally what we have now is much worse, and selfishness is a bigger pandemic than COVID.

    I've always been interested in Rome. I've even read every single volume of Gibbons' Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. It's not for everyone for sure. It was written in the 1770s, but it's very readable for something that is that old.

    The volumes pick up during the Empire stage, and not the Republic, but it's still interesting in seeing the factors that erode and destroy a society. You will see a renaissance followed by a decline, and then this pattern will continue until the their final demise. This is always what I thought our path would, but now as we've discussed I'm more concerned that it'll be even more abrupt.

    So, the answer I think to your question is that we need to somehow get on the bandwagon that the Romans had, we need those periods of renaissance to stem the flow. The problem is that the biggest factor for Rome was a good Emperor that was willing to embrace the changes in the world while at the same time having the support of the people.

    So basically we need someone like a FDR, JFK, Reagan (his polices were terrible but he could inspire etc). But how do you get to that in this current environment? Unfortunately you'd need an outsider. That's probably one reason many flocked to Trump, even though he's evil.

    So we need the right man, or right woman, at the right time. But it doesn't appear as if anyone is currently on deck. We've actually been lucky in that regard at other periods in our history. Lincoln was the right man for those times, and without FDR some of the more radical influences in the world might've taken root here in America too.

    We're also a very celebrity oriented culture. For some reason many Americans remain infatuated with British royalty. Many are obsessed with Harry and Meghan.

    So while ideas do matter, the person pushing them matters even more. One of the more interesting moments in history for me was the fight for the League of Nations. Woodrow Wilson thought it was critical as the lynchpin to stop another world war. The Republicans led by Henry Cabot Lodge were against the Treaty of Versailles because of it. So Wilson embarked on a nationwide tour by train to rally support for the League. He wasn't well at the time, but he pushed on, and support was building. He had a stroke though in Utah ending the tour, and then an even worse one debilitating him back at the White House.

    With him incapacitated the Senate shot down the Treaty of Versailles, the US did not participate in the League, and the second world war that Wilson feared eventually came about, partially because the League was a weak entity.

    Perhaps it would have happened anyway with the US in the League, but the point is how the impact of one person has often been critical in history for good, or evil.
     
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  9. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    The glue that holds society together is responsibility. People feeling responsible for their actions as individuals, as a town, as organizations, companies, etc. In the late 60's when the Left started pushing "freedom" withOUT corresponding increased responsibilities to go with it, the country started declining to where it is now, where everyone feels they are owed something and no one thinks fixing the problems that face them are their responsibility.

    As an example of this, when I was a child we lived in the city, and once a month or so the neighbors would get together to weed the city's part of the streets, rake leaves, repaint the sheds for electrical equipment, get rid of graffiti, etc. It made the area look nice and brought the neighbors together. I don't see neighborhoods out doing things like that any more, and as a result, things look worse. Effort. Effort and responsibility by most people will improve things. People acting selfishly causes decay.

    How can you return our society from where it is to where it was? You probably can't, but if you *could*, I'd bet the way to do so would be to quit listening to every special interest group's complaints and quit trying to make everything "fair" and instead tell everyone that if they want something to improve they should try improving things themselves rather than asking someone else to make their lives better. As an example of this, quit pushing "diversity" where everyone tries to get something for themselves, and start pushing "homogeneity".

    I disagree about the League of Nations, btw. It was never going to succeed. The allies were too punitive on Germany financially after WWI to where Germany could *never* recover. *That* is what led to WWII, and is a big reason that we no longer "punish" defeated countries after a war in that way.
     
  10. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    So this transgender person, 29 years old and as a man was previously rejected from the Olympics for having too *much* testosterone decided he was a woman now and competed as such in a womens' skateboarding event. He came in first, beating out a 13 year old girl. He should be SO proud. This is apparently what a "fair" competition looks like these days.


    "The 29-year-old biological male who came in first place at a New York women's skateboarding competition is a father of three and a combat veteran who was previously rejected from the Olympics for having too much testosterone.

    Ricci Tres, who also goes by Ricci And Tres, won over Shiloh Catori, a 13-year-old girl who is ranked 133rd in the Boardr Global Ranks, which are based on performance in skateboarding competitions. Tres, by comparison, sits at 838 in the rankings.

    Tres took the top title in the women's division of The Boardr Open, taking home $500.


    "I have three kids, I'm married, I did my time in the military, I own a company. I've decided that I like being pretty and cute," Tres said in an interview about skateboarding last year. "So everything that goes with that is female. I love female bodies. I think it's a work of art."

    Tres does not intend to medically transition outside hormone therapy."

    https://www.foxnews.com/us/trans-sk...against-teen-combat-vet-dad-rejected-olympics
     
    #7490 Morgotha, Jun 29, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2022
  11. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    First of all, I gotta say I’m rather impressed that you read all volumes of RaFotRE. I’m serious. That’s a quite a feat as I had always been under the impression that it was a difficult read.

    I have always been a supporter of service being attached to proffered government aide. Take forgiving college loans. I see no reason why the feds can’t have a program that basically says, we’ll forgive your debt if you sign a contract to use your newly acquired skills in an underserved part of the country for x amount of time. I also think workfare would be a good way for those in abject poverty to contribute to society while getting a helping hand. I should think that would also provide some dignity while being on the dole. If there are mothers with young children, they should be able to enroll their children in federally funded day care which would also create jobs for child care workers. The point is that everyone, despite their circumstances contributes to the whole.

    Even living within a capitalist system, isn’t that the idea of taxing corporations at a higher bracket as to pay their fair share? Everyone contributes per their ability for the general welfare, welfare here meaning as it’s defined in the dictionary as the health, fortune and happiness of a person or group.

    I agree leaders who can effectively communicate inspiration to their citizens, without divisiveness are invaluable. Who can forget JFK with his, “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.” That’s one reason Barack Obama was so popular. Whether or not you agreed with his politics I think he was a great communicator. People connected with him and Michelle.

    It’s funny that you should mention the British Royal family. Even though they’re a throwback, they actually provide a valuable service for Great Britain. Their presence serves to unite the British public and provide inspiration and sponsorship to many worthwhile organizations. They also provide an impetus for a thriving tourist industry. They are a curiosity though which is why so many people, even in this country, like to follow what they do. Hey, I’m guilty. It’s not an obsession but I like to see what Kate Middleton is wearing , lol, and I might even shed a few tears when the queen passes away. I did when Diana was killed. Over the years I watched her Royal wedding and loved glimpses of her with her boys, felt bad when she split from Charles and finally thought she had found some happiness when the accident happened. She had my support so I can only imagine what the majority of British citizens felt when she died.

    Here in this country, we’re a little too star struck when it comes to actors and athletes. Many, many people are also too caught up with their social media. Yeah, it was a great way to stay connected during the pandemic but otherwise it disconnects people from each other and reality, in some instances, if too much time is spent on it. It can provide a lot of amusement but it doesn’t promote cohesiveness in RL situations or with RL people if consumers can’t step away.

    Cohesiveness, and yes, personal responsibility as Mo points out has to start out on the local level in each community. When all the neighbors welcome and look out for one another no matter what race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation or religion they are, people become more tolerant and everyone feels vested in where they live whether their families have been in this country since the Mayflower or they’re recent arrivals. We need to embrace the similarities and be curious about the differences without discrimination, shaming or blaming.
     
    #7491 purriwinkle, Jun 30, 2022
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2022
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  12. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    I agreed with you up until your third paragraph. I don’t think special interest groups are the problem per se unless their lobbying efforts and donations serve to put politicians in their pocket. It depends on the group but in many cases people come together as a unit to redress some inequality or discrimination. The group has more power to advocate for their complaints over lone individuals.

    IMO, we wouldn’t have so many problems if more things were fair. It gets to a point that you can only do so much for yourself. For some the only way they feel there can be change is to appeal to their government officials from local, to state and maybe even to the federal government to plead their cases.

    When we as citizens start to embrace inclusiveness we’ll have homogeneity.
     
    #7492 purriwinkle, Jun 30, 2022
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  13. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    I think responsibility is important but people will not feel that sense of community if they think that they're not part of things, or if there are two different sets of rules in the country. I think Vietnam, the assassinations of civil rights leaders, a president and a presidential candidate took a real toll on the country. Then we had Watergate.

    And that is where fairness comes in. If you don't feel there is a level playing field you're going not going to buy into the community or the country. If you have money and power in this country you can get away without about anything. Look at Epstein for all of those years, and even now only his right hand woman has been convicted. What about the countless politicians, business people etc. that took part? No one has been indicted.

    I just use that as one small example. Life isn't fair, we can never promise equal outcomes, nor would I try, but if you feel as if you don't have a chance due to a corrupt government and system you're going to grow detached from it all.
     
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  14. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I've always been interested in Rome so I guess that's why it was easier for me. Like I said before I didn't find the text cumbersome despite how dated it was.

    I was going to include Obama but I felt that the gist of what I was saying might get sidetracked on debating his presidency etc, so I left him out with the other leaders that have inspired people. I supported him in the 08 primary too, so I was onboard from the start.

    As for social media, I do have Twitter but I'm not obsessed with it or anything. It's weird you can go away for a bit, come back and some of the same people are saying the same stuff. It's scary in a way. It's like the film Groundhog Day. I think everyone having a platform has replaced action in some ways. The people become social media "stars" with tens or hundreds of thousands of followers. And many of those accounts are just churning out drivel. Some even are pushing false rumors.

    What I like about social media is that it gives you access to articles and news organizations etc, and you can catch up on what's going on that way. I hate cable news so it's better than that for me. But still, I think overall social media has been detrimental to our society. It's not something that's going to change anytime soon though.
     
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  15. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    I understand what you're saying. In the same fashion, workers being mistreated by management are powerless, but if they band together in a union, they can make changes. My point was though that in all these situations, the group that is trying to gain something is defining themselves as different than the group they came from, if they were not, why would they have to join together at all? Subgroups are divisive by their very nature.

    In race relations (as opposed to blue collar workers vs. administration), this leads to resentment on the part of the larger population who are really the same as the disaffected group, and once people in the group are primed to accept every failure or slight as something based on race, it isn't likely to end. To this point, we have been doing racial/ethnic based "help" for people in this country for 60 *years* now. How many of these programs have gone away in that time as the problems they were to addressed were solved? None. In fact, there are MORE set asides now than there were previously, as *everyone* wants to get in on the handouts. Nope, I understand what you are saying, but do not believe paying people to make themselves different from the larger group benefits society.
     
  16. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I commented on the fairness thing in a post above but another thing came to mind, the Sanders campaign from 2016. I don't like him, and I'm not in favor of socialism but fairness is why he hit a chord in so many people.

    If someone could somehow cut through the divide with a clear message that addressed all the areas in our society that are problematic in this way, but still unite people from both spectrums, that would be the key.
     
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  17. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    I agree that if one doesn't believe in the system, and that at least on some level the system is fair, one won't participate. That's why IMO society should quit amplifying the voice of those who believe they are being mistreated on not given everything they *deserve*. All that doing so does is convince more people that society doesn't work. It's a shame, really, because our society compared to the others out there gives outsiders MORE opportunity than pretty much anyone else.
     
  18. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    I really like the thought of expression replacing action being a side effect of social media. It's a concept I don't think we as a society have come to terms with. It used to be we needed leaders who could make themselves heard by everyone, and their speech was important as action itself to let people know what was going on and what needed to be done about it, but when *everyone* can be heard by everyone? Is it still useful to have people speaking instead of doing something to bring about change? Is speech still an important action in itself?

    I'm not so sure. What I am sure about is having millions of people posting "I had beans for breakfast" and millions of other people reading the same overall wastes a lot of life-hours and isn't adding to our society in any meaningful way.
     
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  19. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    From the "no good deed goes unpunished" dept:

    A 77 year-old man hired a man and gave him a place to stay as he had no place to live. The man decided to thank his benefactor by attacking him with a hatchet and then shooting him in the face. I think it's time to take a page from the Gilbert and Sullivan theory of justice and let some guy take a hatchet and gun to the perpetrator.

    https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-man-attacks-elderly-boss-hatchet-shoots-face-deputies
     
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  20. rabscuttle1

    rabscuttle1 Well-Known Member

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    Technology... mainly social media... has done more harm than good in my opinion. The internet has contributed to the dumbing down of society. Instead of spreading ideas, culture, and brotherhood...it has spread paranoia, hate, and stupidity. Just because we can doesn't mean we should. Just because something is new doesn't mean it's better or should automatically replace what already works. I'm not a conformist, and that's all technology does....force people to conform to what someone else says is a better way. The Cult of Conformity is on full display.
     
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