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Some craziness

Discussion in 'Debaters' started by Morgotha, Feb 28, 2017.

  1. rabscuttle1

    rabscuttle1 Well-Known Member

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    We need a Centrist President...and in today's political landscape...that's not going to happen. It's clear those in power have forgotten how to compromise.
     
  2. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Who likes to find themselves on the short end of the fairness stick? There has to be a chance to balance inequities or people find a way to equal the odds that might not be so savory.
    Organized crime and gangs for example seem to sprout up in areas where people have less opportunities and less hope.

    I’ve often thought that when older generations of minorities kept hitting the wall when it came to acceptance, the younger ones basically said, f**k that shit, often not buying into the effort it takes to keep trying. They become more willing to take illegal risks to get ahead. Everyone who bucks that trend, stays in school, goes to college and becomes a functioning member of society should be commended…encouraged to take a seat at the table.
     
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  3. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    The problem with race relations is that it’s a fact that historically the system has been stacked against minorities. Yeah, it takes 60 years to redress some of the damage and to be honest, have all the problems gone away? I think we still see elements of racism and discrimination today. Many people of the dominant group just don’t like or trust people of the “minority” groups. For instance, there might not be actual red lining going on today but there are people who will still sell their houses and move if minorities buy in their neighborhood.

    As far as programs like affirmative action, It’s basically explained as:
    Affirmative action in the United States is a set of laws, policies, guidelines, and administrative practices "intended to end and correct the effects of a specific form of discrimination"[1] that include government-mandated, government-approved, and voluntary private programs. The programs tend to focus on access to education and employment, granting special consideration to historically excluded groups, specifically racial minorities or women.[1][2] The impetus toward affirmative action is redressing the disadvantages[3][4][5][6][7] associated with past and present discrimination.[8] Further impetus is a desire to ensure public institutions, such as universities, hospitals, and police forces, are more representative of the populations they serve.[9]

    I see no problem with that. Representation is important. So is leveling the playing field. As for higher education? Children of the majority group have all sorts of opportunities for entrance to good schools including but not limited to scholarships which may not be available to minority groups, That’s why I like programs such as NYS’s Excelsior program which is open to all students who meet the financial qualifications no matter what race or religion they are.
    https://www.nyit.edu/admissions/nys_excelsior_program_enhanced_tuition_awards

    Why be resentful that minorities or poorer people are being given chances that others should be grateful they don’t need. Someday these types of programs may not be needed either but I don’t think we’re there yet. If there are those who feel they’re falling through the cracks it just takes a little ingenuity and make sure you impress on your kids to study hard so they can get a scholarship or start at the community college level. It wouldn’t even be a bad idea to encourage them to go into the military or pursue a trade if there’s some interest.

    I do agree that people shouldn’t blame race for every perceived slight or failure, however It gets tricky because it’s not always apparent if it’s real or BS.
     
    #7503 purriwinkle, Jul 1, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2022
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  4. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    I think the best of social media is Youtube. You have longer content and, like Netflix, there's something for everyone. It's more geared toward entertainment related videos anyway.

    The worst are Facebook and Twitter. They not only spread all the insanity that you mentioned, but I think they've really helped to destroy the power and credibility of the media. You have journalists on there engaging bizarrely with non-media accounts, pushing tweets to provoke people and get clicks etc. You even had politicians trolling people. On nearly a daily basis Chuck Schumer would tweet, "Today would be a good day for President Biden to cancel student debt."

    Not only is this not something the Leader of the Senate should be doing, but it further degrades everything. No wonder we can't have serious adult conversations in politics anymore.
     
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  5. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    One other thing that is important is the long term impact of racism. For the sake of argument lets pretend that hate has been virtually eradicated. It doesn't change the fact that families subjected to that are disadvantaged over those that did not. If you snap your fingers and say the 1960s we finally had civil rights, it doesn't mean we still have a level playing field. That's where the programs you mentioned come in, to insure opportunities.

    What if after World War II we had said, the Nazis are defeated, good luck Europe! What state would they be in today? The Marshall Plan rebuilt western Europe.

    It's this weird thing too where we help other countries like Europe, and our former enemies like Japan and Germany, but when it comes to our own citizens there's this weird callous behavior from too many. Thing like: If you don't succeed too bad, it's your own fault. You're a failure. Do better. Work harder. Improve yourself.

    But at times people need help. Bad luck of misfortune has hit them. Or they don't have the opportunities available to them.

    I'm all for helping Ukraine defeat Putin, but what about here at home? And this doesn't just go for cities, but also the rural areas that have been left out, or places in the Midwest that have lost jobs and industries.

    We can, and should, do a lot better.
     
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  6. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    This last year the U.S. has exceeded $1 Trillion (yes, Trillion) dollars in welfare spending, up from $773 Billion in pre-covid years. As a comparison to Ukraine, a country of 43 million people, their GDP is about 150 Billion - we are spending 6 times Ukraine's GDP on welfare! Another way to look at that would be to say we could be paying ALL the bills for everyone in 6 Ukraines, 250 million people, every year. What are we getting for that amount of spending?

    Actually, we are spending more on welfare every year than the total GDPs of 90% of the countries in the world. There is NO WAY you can say we aren't spending enough. If these programs aren't effective, they need to be changed or discontinued. If the people aren't benefiting, someone needs to ask, "why not"? Someone should also be asking if all this spending is really serving to keep people down, rather than letting them rise up.

    I'd bet a part of the reason they aren't successful are cultural values, though. For example when you have organizations as esteemed as the Smithsonian's African History museum stating that hard work and rational thinking are "white values", that respect for authority and being on time are "white" values, it's no surprise that people who want to represent "their" culture turn their back on behaviors that would help them succeed in the modern world. And if this is the tame and sanitized Smithsonian version, who knows what the activists and nuts out there are saying?

    "The Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture recently unveiled guidelines for talking about race. A graphic displayed in the guidelines, entitled "Aspects and Assumptions of Whiteness in the United States," declares that rational thinking and hard work, among others, are white values.

    In the section, Smithsonian declares that "objective, rational, linear thinking," "quantitative emphasis," "hard work before play," and various other values are aspects and assumptions of whiteness."


    Oh, and finally, the claims of racism only seem to matter to minorities born and raised in *this* country. People who immigrate here from somewhere else don't seem to have any problems finding work or starting their own businesses. Isn't it odd that "racism" isn't really based on "race"?

    https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/gdp

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

    https://federalsafetynet.com/welfare-budget/

    https://www.newsweek.com/smithsonia...l-thinking-hard-work-are-white-values-1518333
     
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  7. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    I've decided that systemic racism is b.s. Sure, some people don't like each other, that happens everywhere in the world. However, anyone in this country who goes to school and studies, doesn't get pregnant, take drugs, or commit criminal actions, can either get in to college, the military, or employment and have a decent life. OTOH, if you choose a different path for yourself, and come out of school uneducated and high with no respect for yourself or anyone else, you shouldn't be too surprised that the world isn't opening its doors for you. That's on YOU, not the system.

    Is the road going to be tough for some people and a bed of roses for others? Absolutely. So what? If people want to be successful, they need only worry about what THEY are doing, and not what the Jones are doing or have.
     
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  8. rabscuttle1

    rabscuttle1 Well-Known Member

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    I'm of mixed race and can tell you that systemic racism is bullshit. It's a lie designed to keep minorities down.
     
  9. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    It makes me curious though, and you need not answer as it’s personal, what race you pass as….makes a difference, IMO.
     
  10. rabscuttle1

    rabscuttle1 Well-Known Member

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    Native Americans see White. Whites see mixed. Mexicans see Mexican. Blacks see White.
     
  11. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Are you kidding me? Are you claiming the US has had no history of systemic racism? Since the civil war there has been:
    Black Codes
    Jim Crow laws
    Separate but equal public facilities
    Red lining
    Miscegenation laws
    Mass incarceration

    I’m sure I’m forgetting a few. Most of that is in the past but discrimination is still around. I hate those stories where teachers take it upon themselves to cut the natural hair of school children or call the cops and have them handcuffed when they’re practically babies. They wouldn’t dare do that to white kids.

    Everyone should do the things you listed to become successful but there are plenty of white losers as well. You know, the ones that used to be referred to as white trash. Plenty of whites have been caught up in the opioid crisis. White girls get pregnant out of wedlock too. A lot of whites drop out of school so why is the stigma always attached to minorities? Whites commit the same crimes as blacks but blacks get harsher sentences? Why’s that?

    https://www.wtkr.com/investigations...rsher-punishments-than-whites-for-same-crimes

    What about the birther conspiracy theories concerning our 44th president? How successful can you be to run for and win (twice) the presidency and still have to put up with that f**king shit.


    During Barack Obama's campaign for president in 2008, throughout his presidency and afterwards, there was extensive news coverage of Obama's religious preference, birthplace, and of the individuals questioning his religious belief and citizenship – efforts eventually known as the "birther movement",[2] by which name it is widely referred to across media.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9] The movement falsely asserted Obama was ineligible to be President of the United States because he was not a natural-born citizen of the United States as required by Article Two of the Constitution. Birther conspiracy theories were predominantly held by conservatives and Republicans, as well as individuals with anti-black attitudes.[10][11]

    [​IMG]
    A 2010 billboard displayed in South Gate, California, questioning the validity of Barack Obama's birth certificate and by extension his eligibility to serve as President of the U.S. The billboard was part of an advertising campaign by WorldNetDaily, whose web address appears on the billboard's bottom right corner.
    [​IMG]
    In response to the conspiracy theories, the White Housereleased copies of the President's long-form birth certificate on April 27, 2011, then posted an image of it to the White House website,[1]reaffirming that he was born on August 4, 1961, in Honolulu, Hawaii.
    Theories alleged that Obama's published birth certificate was a forgery – that his actual birthplace was not Hawaii but Kenya. Other theories alleged that Obama became a citizen of Indonesia in childhood, thereby losing his U.S. citizenship. Still others claimed that Obama was not a natural-born U.S. citizen because he was born a dual citizen (British and American). A number of political commentators have characterized these various claims as a racist reaction to Obama's status as the first African-American president of the United States.[12]

    * Oh, as far as people not “liking” each other, it happens, but the hope is one would get to know someone a little before they decided they didn’t like them. I dislike certain individuals from all races because they’re horrible people, IMO, not because they belong to any particular race or ethnicity.
     
    #7511 purriwinkle, Jul 1, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2022
  12. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Ah. So you’re light enough that two racial groups see a white person. Whites can spot some characteristics that identify you as having “mixed blood” as they used to say. Mexicans see one of their own and maybe you are…or not. By your own account, no one sees you as black or indigenous however, and I would say probably treat you accordingly.
     
  13. rabscuttle1

    rabscuttle1 Well-Known Member

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    I'm darker than many light skinned fellow Natives Americans and Mexicans...and in the summer I'm a very dark red brown. People see what they're conditioned to see. My facial features are also not "white" and you can easily tell I'm of mixed race. Lots of people these days just get offended that I don't pick one race and stick with it. I claim everything that makes me who and what I am. I've had this argument many times over the years on this forum.

    I should also add that my skin tone doesn't really have anything to do with systemic racism...and how it's only purpose is to make minorites feel like if they try and achieve anything they're sale outs to the "white" way. I've watched my father get treated this way my entire life...and have experienced the same treatment...because we refuse to conform to how others think we're supposed to think and feel.
     
    #7513 rabscuttle1, Jul 2, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2022
  14. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    That’s interesting. First of all, why should you pick one race over another if you feel vested in both. That’s your choice and no one else’s business. I would venture to say that most people whose ancestors have been in this country for generations have married outside their own “group”. Starting with European immigrants, eventually the Irish married Italians or the Swedes a Frenchman and so on and so forth in all sorts of combinations to where America truly became a “melting pot” ethnic wise for “whites”.

    There have always been those who ventured to mate with others from different racial groups. It wasn’t looked on favorably by society as a whole however once miscegenation laws were struck off the books whites and blacks were mixing their genes.
    I’m sure other racial groups and ethnic groups outside of Europe were also joining suit in marrying “outsiders” cause let’s face it, the heart wants what the heart wants and we’re all human beings. A great many of us could technically be considered “mutts”, lol. It’s just so much easier to do this in America than it is in many countries around the world, even today, where populations tend to be more homogeneous.

    So my thought is as a nation we’re confused to some extent. It’s hard for many whites to shake off the fact that they were conquerors. They came to this land and systematically pushed off and then killed off the indigenous inhabitants. The British settlers pushed back the French during the French and Indian wars into Canada. Texans eventually pushed back the Mexicans. White European settlers who severed their ties with England to form their own country were the top tier aggressors. They bought slaves from Africa. White men made the laws and they made damn sure they were the benefactors but I don’t have to tell you. This goes back to what we were discussing regarding the decline of Empires. The age of intellectualism brought about radical changes in the way people thought but there are always those who can’t move their intellectual or emotional needles.

    If you read my post to Mo you have to recognize that historically there has been systemic racism codified through law. We’ve come to the point now where we’re supposed to be past that though it doesn’t seem, at times, like everyone’s read the memo.

    I can’t say how other races are supposed to feel or act today. Laws have changed, policies have been enacted to redress some of the egregious actions of the past but personal prejudices are still on display. Work within the system? Act outside the system? Bring the system down? Everything seems like it’s going bonkers. The only thing I feel we can be responsible for is our own actions and to work with others of like mind to see that things don’t go back to the way they were.

    Physically, I’m as white as they get, but right now I feel my fight is to protect my hard earned rights as a woman and that’s the rights of all women to personal bodily autonomy and reproductive choice. You have to fight your own battles buddy, but know you have support if you need or want it.
     
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  15. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    I read the Newsweek article concerning the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History. The above quotes were on a graphic. Also stated:

    White dominant culture, or whiteness, refers to the ways white people and their traditions, attitudes, and ways of life have been normalized over time and are now considered standard practices in the United States," the introduction to the section reads. "And since white people still hold most of the institutuional power in America, we have all internalized some aspects of white culture— including people of color."

    [​IMG]

    Whites were the “bosses” and that was the “corporate culture”that people ripped from their own culture came to identify with.
    After the first generation what else would slaves born here know? Not that there’s anything wrong with that except it’s rather paradoxical that whites didn’t recognize the accomplishments of those subsequent black generations once they were emancipated. It took decades for progress to be made. It also says in one of the subsections that are discussed:

    The "White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" section says that white people do not need to worry about certain things, such as doing things alone without being followed or harassed, along with feeling that their race is properly represented.

    "Thinking about race is very different for nonwhite persons living in America," the Smithsonian site continues. "People of color must always consider their racial identity, whatever the situation, due to the systemic and interpersonal racism that still exists."

    It goes on to say these topics should be food for discussion and to open a dialogue.
     
  16. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    The average person alive in America today was born in 1980 or later, long after any of those things existed. I'm not talking about the past, I'm talking about NOW. Right NOW, if you are a minority and are looking to get ahead, if you follow society's rules, you will.

    Yes, there are white losers too, and they need to be told exactly the same thing. If YOU work hard and lead a morally upright life, YOU will do well. If you don't, you will fail and it's YOUR fault, not society's. Why do blacks get harsher sentences? I don't know if that's really true, if ALL factors of the crimes are taken in to account, and even if it is, that just means that blacks have MORE of an incentive NOT to break the law. Personally, I'd like the sentences for *everyone* committing crimes to be harsher to make society safer.

    What about them? So Trump saying Obama was unqualified to be president is racist, but Hillary saying Trump was mentally unsound and in collusion with Russia was NOT racist but just politics? Please. They are both big boys and if they are running for President should be tough enough to fight their own fights without some pearl-clutcher defending them from "racism". Oh, and on Obama? IMO, he really brought the birther thing on himself when he let his publisher claim he WAS from Kenya in order to sell more books. He doesn't have a right to complain that his political opponents are using what's written on his own books against him.

    I agree. It's funny, I was watching a Spanish dystopia on t.v. this weekend and the Woman of the House/Villianess/misunderstood patriot was complaining about how Madrid was actually better now without all the brown people and that before their fascist government stepped in it as it looked like New Delhi before and now it didn't. My point? It isn't just in America where people judge others based on their skin tone or status or wealth, every human society does. I'm not saying that as an excuse to stop trying to get better, either, but think that our society at least is *trying* to improve itself. I don't think we have to walk around in hair shirts because we aren't absolutely perfect and call our society a failure because something we are doing isn't at the 100% mark. No other society is, either, and the odds are we never will be. We are trying, though, which makes us better than some.
     
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  17. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Right. There WAS, in the past. The past isn't "now" which is why we call it the past.


    When I brought up how "transgender" people are taking spots meant for women and giving them to biological men, your take was that we should be happy with that and be more understanding of how the transgendered are being discriminated against and give up spots to them that were meant for women to somehow make things right. That didn't sound to me like someone who understood the Title IX fight or who wanted to fight for women's rights.

    I think it's great you are going to fight for women's reproductive rights, but hope you'll see the wisdom in pressuring *Congress* to pass a *law* to do that the Constitutional way, and not try and backdoor it through the courts like was previously done with Roe.
     
  18. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    I really don't understand what your point was here. Claiming hard work is a white value? Planning for the future and delayed gratification are white values? If that is true, then I'd say those white values are BETTER for someone of any race to follow than the non-white values of NOT working hard, NOT planning for the future and immediate gratification as a "value".

    Those "white values" as described by the Smithsonian brought us the society we have, with effectively everyone being fed, good health, electricity, running water, relative safety, etc. If you find those values abhorrent, which African country (that presumably doesn't practice them) should be the role model for the U.S.' value system? Somalia? Nigeria? The Sudan? Libya?
     
  19. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    What was your point in posting that information to begin with. You provided the link and when I read the whole thing, it appeared to me that you had left out some of the more salient points that they were trying to make.

    It seems to me that ALL cultures have “good” values and the problem with our country was that the forced mass importation of people from another culture and continent created the clash that exists somewhat even today by one groups trying to eradicate the others.

    An easy way for me to illustrate that the values of other cultures are not less admirable than those of white culture but are similar in many ways is to take a look at Kwanzaa. A way for Black Americans to honor the values they brought with them from their motherlands (I would think each African country is a bit different like European countries are all a bit different).

    In brief here are the values celebrated:

    Unity
    Collective work and Responsibility
    Purpose
    Self-determination
    Cooperative Economics
    Creativity
    Faith

    https://examples.yourdictionary.com/7-kwanzaa-principles-and-their-meanings-explained.html

    They look fine to me and if it helps to give people back some dignity as to who they are as a people that’s a wonderful thing.

    I’m sure not every Black person celebrates that holiday just like not everyone celebrates Christmas or maybe they do but stick to the secular version, not giving the religious meaning much or any consideration.

    Maybe I’m trying to say Everyone needs to come to the realization that our country is now multi cultural, multi racial, multi religious, multi-gendered or sexual(?)lol, but the main value we need to practice now is mutual respect.

    *As to Africa today, can we say with any certainty what effect colonialism had on the indigenous population? I chuckled when I read “running water” as a measure of a good society. Didn’t the Romans have those amenities as well and we know it didn’t keep the empire together. It took a very long time for people to gain back what they lost in engineering skills, and hygienic practices.
     
    #7519 purriwinkle, Jul 5, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2022
  20. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Those laws may be in the past but prejudice is still with us NOW to a great extent. That would be the present.

    I’m going to say this one last time. I don’t get involved with sports on the scholastic level. I don’t know how the officials in each sport determine the rules as to who is eligible to compete.

    I do understand that transgendered individuals are part of our society and maybe those in charge better start thinking outside the box as to how to make the possible physical differences more equitable. As for the girls, Weight classes? Testosterone levels? I don’t know. I’m not even well versed in title IX or how it was implemented in school sports to begin with. I think I mentioned my daughter took dance in high school for her PE credits. There were boys and girls dancing together for the recitals they had to put on for the school each year. So I have no impact statement to make.

    I already see the wisdom in that and I’m also supportive of codifying a woman’s right to abortion on the state level, which in NY has already begun.
    https://www.politico.com/news/2022/07/01/new-york-abortion-amendement-00043736
     

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