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Some craziness

Discussion in 'Debaters' started by Morgotha, Feb 28, 2017.

  1. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    The difference though is that as opposed to other holidays which are based on something real, Kwanzaa was literally *invented* by a professor Cal. State Long Beach, so it's hard to say it has the same meaning for anyone as say, Christmas, or Ramadan.

    On the colonialism. It's my understanding that humanity originated in Africa and spread out from there. Shouldn't Africa then have the longest, most stable cultures and the most prosperous societies? Why were the African countries "colonized" at all? What is it about their cultures that made them not advance as societies like Western nations did?

    The Roman Empire lasted for 500 years, with the byzantine half lasting over 1000, covering a variety of cultures and geography without any means of mass communications, etc., and in a world of considerable savagery. I'd say roads, running water, and a "fair" government were very big parts of their success. I'd say the Romans exemplified the values - excuse me, the "white" values as the left calls them - of hard work and planning for the future. LOL, it's funny you'd make that comparison, as it's easy to draw the parallel of the early empire, working and building and succeeding in whatever they attempted, and compared that to the later empire focusing on hedonism and welfare and decaying, much like our society is doing now.
     
    #7521 Morgotha, Jul 5, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2022
  2. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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  3. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Elementary, my dear Mo. Why did Europeans conqueror most of the inhabited Earth by the nineteenth century? One big part was we perfected gun powder and the weapons that used it to the disadvantage of cultures that didn’t. An excerpt from a longer source:

    [​IMG]https://www.jstor.org/stable/23254938

    or

    https://www.barrons.com/articles/from-gunpowder-to-world-domination-1453527156

    It reminds me of that iconic scene from Indiana Jones, lol:


    So I would venture to say the violent tendencies of the Europeans at the time and their greediness along with their ability to adapt new technologies to achieve that greed was key. It had nothing to do with values especially as evidenced by the way history tells us they treated the conquered.

    As for the Roman Empire, Stealth is our resident expert, but I believe we were discussing it and how the stages of empire and what happened to Rome relates to “our” empire today as it would seem we’re in the stage of decay and decline.

    The holiday of Kwanzaa, per se, wasn’t the point at all. It was only a succinct way to illustrate what African values have meaning today. Oh, don’t get me started on Christmas, lol. Talk about your invented holidays!

    In the early years of Christianity, Easter was the main holiday; the birth of Jesus was not celebrated. In the fourth century, church officials decided to institute the birth of Jesus as a holiday. Unfortunately, the Bible does not mention date for his birth (a fact Puritans later pointed out in order to deny the legitimacy of the celebration). Although some evidence suggests that his birth may have occurred in the spring (why would shepherds be herding in the middle of winter?), Pope Julius I chose December 25. It is commonly believed that the church chose this date in an effort to adopt and absorb the traditions of the pagan Saturnalia festival. First called the Feast of the Nativity, the custom spread to Egypt by 432 and to England by the end of the sixth century.
    https://www.history.com/topics/christmas/history-of-christmas

    Tell me, did Santa visit the manger along with the Magi???
     
    #7523 purriwinkle, Jul 5, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2022
  4. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Not a cultural value at all. Only an economic solution for hunger. How sad it’s come to that.
    *it also illustrates the standing of women in many societies, and it’s not good.
     
    #7524 purriwinkle, Jul 5, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2022
  5. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    So... the Western values of hard work and the scientific method allowed them to make use of natural resources in a way that other cultures without those values could not, hence they conquered the land. Makes sense. I wouldn't say they were more violent, though. LOL, even in Indiana Jones it's the sword wielding baddie from the East that attacks the peaceful Western Indiana. Jones just uses the fruits of his culture to win the fight.

    On Christmas, I just used it as it was used earlier in the thread. Sure, for most important holidays in the Christian calendar I'd go with the Easter season hands down. On Christmas, Jesus had to be born at some point, and without records of the exact date, someone at some point decided what the date would be. That was done over 1000 years before the founding of our country, though, so it should reasonably be considered an established holiday at this point. I'm not personally worked up about shepherds in Winter, for two reasons: first, sheep need to eat, even in winter, and someone needs to move them around from place to place to do so, hence the shepherds. Secondly, I don't think animals are ever mentioned in the manger story at all, so perhaps there weren't any in the first place (although one would assume there were animals in a barn). The point being, the presence of the animals don't make or break the story.

    On Santa, do you mean this guy? I hear he brought the mashed potatoes and gravy.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    The standing of women in various societies IS a cultural value, though. In the US, selling your daughter is illegal. In Africa, it's apparently still a thing. I guess if I had to say which I preferred... I'd go with ours.

    Why is any of this relevant, btw? For me it's because various segments of our society can't wait to run down our culture and try to gaslight everything we do or have achieved. Why? What do they want to go back to that's so much better? Grass huts, malaria, genital mutilation, and being sold off for a herd of malnourished cows?
     
    #7526 Morgotha, Jul 5, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2022
  7. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Everyone was violent back in those days. I know that but I’ve often wondered what the world would look like if all countries had been forced to continue carrying out warfare using more primitive weaponry and sheer man power…and explorers were really traders instead of exploiters.


    Moving on to Christmas, it was a great PR move on Pope Julius Ist’s part. Let those pagans have their fun and their customs and we’ll just dress up the Saturnalia and say it’s Christ’s birth date. Way to increase the flock, lol.

    Seriously, today more people celebrate the secular aspects of the holiday than religious. I even have a tree and you know how I feel about religion. Love to decorate too, give gifts, have a big family dinner and no one sets foot in a church. Good times. Just like your pic. There are very few Christians in Japan but they love to decorate and the whole shebang and as an added touch they like to eat KFC for x-mas dinner! Love it!


    https://www.sbs.com.au/food/article/2021/12/21/japan-its-fried-chicken-all-way-christmas-day

    Japan doesn’t really celebrate Christmas in the same way that many western countries like Australia do. There are not many Christians living in Japan – Shintoism, Confucianism and Buddhism are the country’s major faiths. December 25 is also not a public holiday.

    Yet, it’s customary for the city streets to be adorned with Christmas decorations and shops to market Christmas-themed products. So what is it that the Japanese are actually celebrating if the event is so far removed from its original religious roots?

    Chie Tobita, who currently lives in Tokyo, tells SBS that Christmas in Japan is more about festive fun than spiritual meaning.

    Likened to a blend of New Year’s Day and Valentine’s Day, December 25 has become known as a day of romance. It’s where singles have house parties (featuring chicken on the table) or date each other at fancy restaurants, while couples with young kids who want to enjoy a Western celebration stay at home and eat fried chicken.

    I’m all turkied out after Thanksgiving. Maybe I should suggest KFC next year! Lol. And the Col. does look cute in his Santa suit.
     
    #7527 purriwinkle, Jul 5, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2022
  8. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    We can’t change the past but we can understand it and try to make the future better. We also don’t have to white wash the uglier aspects of our society either but should take a good look at what needs to go.

    BTW I read they’re selling their daughters in Afghanistan too. Often they’re selling their young girls to some wealthier old goat as a wife so the rest of the family can eat. Lord knows what their life is then like. Here they just import foreign women or take homeless kids off the street and use them outright in the sex trade industry and that’s boys as well as girls. Big improvement.:rolleyes:
     
    #7528 purriwinkle, Jul 5, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2022
  9. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Yes, everyone was violent, that I'd agree with much more than your prior statement where you blamed the "violent tendencies of the Europeans and their greediness". If warfare continued using old methods, the world would look like it did before new methods were used. We know what would happen if explorers were traders by looking at our own country. The French traded extensively throughout America, but were interested in trade with the Indians, not colonization. Ajourd'hui, nous parlons Anglais, pas Francais. I'm glad the British came and "exploited" America, btw. If it hadn't, perhaps the world would now be ruled by the Nazis and Imperial Japan.

    Oh, I agree. I used to bemoan the secularization of Christmas, but have come to believe that having a "family" day isn't so bad either, and it doesn't distract from the much more important Christian holiday of Easter. I've never had KFC at Christmas, though. Maybe I should try that this year as well, a Christmas dinner of KFC, rice, edamame, and miso soup? It would be remembered, that's for sure!
     
  10. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't think we need to whitewash our history. Like the saying goes, "those who don't remember history are condemned to repeat it". The thing is though, our country now refuses to acknowledge the GOOD we do for the world, and that's just as wrong. We generally ARE on the side of the angels, overall, and are the ones fighting the world's villains.

    In our country those actions are a *crime*, not an accepted practice, and "yes", that's a VERY big difference! *well, at least it used to be. Now America doesn't seem to want to punish criminals at all, so maybe the difference isn't as big as I think.
     
  11. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Pfft. While we don’t allow the marriage of very young children as in some other countries, we’re close to it in some cases as the marriage age is set by each state, with or without parental consent.I found this information:


    • Arkansas: Age of consent to marry with parental consent for males is 17; for females is 16.
    • Delaware: Age of consent to marry with parental consent for males is 18; for females is 16.
    • Massachusetts: Age of consent to marry with parental consent for males is 14; for females is 12.
    • Mississippi: Age of consent to marry with parental consent for males is 17, for females is 15.
    • New Hampshire: Age of consent to marry with parental consent for males is 14; for females is 13.
    • Ohio: Age of consent to marry with parental consent for males is 18; for females is 16.
    • Rhode Island: Age of consent to marry with parental consent for males is 18; for females is 16.
    • Puerto Rico: Age of consent to marry with parental consent for males is 18; for females is 16.
    States with No Minimum Age
    As of July 1, 2019, 12 states have no minimum age when all exemptions are taken into account. These states are: California, Idaho, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Rhode Island, Washington, West Virginia, and Wyoming.

    Rather interesting, no? And yes, what we did for our enemies after WWII was extraordinary producing some of our now best allies, serving as a model for the rest of the world. Now if we could only be that magnanimous with our own fellow citizens and really mean it.
     
  12. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Well, we’ll never know for sure how world events would have turned out. Perhaps one of our greatest achievements was in setting into motion the demise of the absolute monarch although it reformed itself into what we now call a dictator. As Solomon said, there’s nothing new under the sun.”
     
  13. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    The essence of manliness, if not exactly a role model. The guy's obviously drunk while dancing around, starts a fire, shows no fear at all, puts out said fire himself, and goes back to dancing around, all while laughing.

    And as a bonus, I particularly like the part where he drops the sparkler in his left hand after seeing the fire. You can almost hear the gears in his head turning: "Me start fire, must put out, need both hands, drop thing in hand". He's lucky that didn't start a second fire.

     
    #7533 Morgotha, Jul 6, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2022
  14. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Yes, well, if you start reading where people are selling their daughters for gas or something, let me know, otherwise I'll write these laws off as relics of a vanished time.
     
  15. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    I’m not saying everything we do here is bad, nor do I disagree with the the lofty goals set out by the founding fathers despite the fact we as a nation have fallen short of seeing them fully implemented. However, before we start pointing fingers at other cultures over certain practices we have to realize sometimes that finger could be pointed right back at us.

    The current issue up for debate is selling your children. It’s a fact that desperate families in other countries have done this out of necessity to eat. Here in the US there are some parents who would sell or pimp their children out for drugs or the money to buy drugs, and I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if this was only the tip of the ice berg.

    https://wjactv.com/news/local/officials-parents-selling-own-children-into-human-trafficking

    https://www.wvlt.tv/content/news/Children-sold-for-sex-to-fuel-addiction--564887542.html

    As for crushing poverty, how bout this infamous example from our not so distant past:

    [​IMG]
    https://historyofyesterday.com/why-were-american-children-sold-for-2-after-wwii-f68640e38d1

    While this is one case, the article states:
    According to a report by Barbara Bisantz Raymond, during the period of 1936–1950 over 50,000 children were stolen from their biological parents, and over 5,000 children were sold.

    Do I believe this is a cultural value? I would hope not. Does it still occur despite that? Apparently. Quite frankly while it may not be legal here, I can’t say what the official government position is on the practice in other countries either. Perhaps they turn a blind eye because parents resorting to this are following relics of their past. In rural and remote parts of these countries it could be hard to enforce laws that contradict ancient practices. Not only that, if bigamy is legal or part of a religious tenet, it could be difficult to enforce age limits, again, on desperate families. We don’t have that here…wait...what am I saying….*cough*certain Mormons*cough*….and I doubt they’re in any kind of economic dire straights.

    Personally, I think the whole idea is repulsive but I’m far from starving either, and I don’t have a passel of kids to look after. For me it comes down to the old adage: “There but for the grace of god, go I”.
     
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  16. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of the Mormons, I saw a documentary on Netflix about one sect where they were marrying off the kids of their members. When law enforcement was closing in they moved to a compound in Texas. The leader ended up being on the run for an extended period of times and the followers were forced to keep giving ridiculous amounts of money each week, that they sent to the leader. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars. The guy was traveling around to Vegas etc. The whole story is insane. They finally caught him due to a traffic stop in Nevada and he was convicted about 10 years ago. The sect still exists and he's running it from prison.
     
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  17. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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  18. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Whack-a-doodles, IMO, but that’s what “religion” can do to ya, if you’re not careful. I will say though, main stream Mormons did put on an entertaining show at the Hill Cumorah pageant.
     
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  19. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, it's really nuts. How do you let the lunatic leader of your religion take your underaged kids and then marry them off to adults? A lot of it is brainwashing and being in the religion since you were young, but still. None of these people woke up when it was their own kids.

    There was a story of one girl in this documentary who fell in love with a boy there and she asked the leader to let them get married, but he told her it wasn't what God intended and he had her marry an adult. It's about control and a real sickness. This was a clear instance where they could've allowed the two to marry, but that doesn't fit in the cult.

    Some younger people though did escape. One of the girls got out and to her brother who had previously fled. But those were the exceptions.
     
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  20. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Are these "let criminals out on bail" policies good for society? Here's a guy who was out on bail for armed robbery committing another armed robbery with his State-mandated ankle monitor still on. So on whether these policies are a good idea, I'd say... "no".

    "
    A Boost Mobile store near Los Angeles was robbed by a gunman on parole in broad daylight over the weekend in an incident captured on security video.

    The Culver City Police Department said officers were notified of the robbery on July 10 at 2:18 p.m. Lawrence Bell, 37, allegedly entered the store and pointed a semi-automatic handgun at two employees.

    Video of the robbery shows the employees talking with a customer when a suspect wearing a hoodie and mask enters. "

    https://www.foxnews.com/us/california-gunman-robs-boost-mobile-police
     

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