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Discussion in 'Volume 20: All Out War - Part 1' started by Tony Davis, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. Neuropyramidal

    Neuropyramidal Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry I don't degrade and insult all those with different opinions. Just those who parade particular brands of illogic. [Don't worry, I mean that in the friendliest of jests]

    And you are right, You have not convinced me that Negan is reasonable and that Rick's group was the one who 'asked for it'. You also will not convince me that shit is chocolate. Even your misplacd lecture about morality won't do it. Like I said before, if you really don't think what Negan is doing is stealing, then you also won't mind when I come to your house, shovel your sidewalk, and then take half your furniture at gunpoint for my 'service'. Its not stealing after all.
     
    #41 Neuropyramidal, Dec 15, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
  2. Undead Tyrant

    Undead Tyrant Member

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    This has nothing to do with logical thinking, it has more to do with how much we believe human lives are worth.

    And you are certainly free to try, should the zombie apocalypse ever happen. But I severely doubt you would have what it takes to get away with much looting. I will still be taking my chances and siding with a leader like Negan. ;)
     
  3. Neuropyramidal

    Neuropyramidal Well-Known Member

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    I guess that's your choice if you want to see your group members killed and terrorized by his group for the rest of your life. As for me, the walkers would be enough of a bother without putting my group in harm's way by associating them with a murderous psychopath. But you are right when you say associating yourself with a group like Negan's has nothing to do with logical thinking. Oh, and looting is actually quite easy when 4999 out of 5000 people are dead.
     
    #43 Neuropyramidal, Dec 15, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
  4. legendx66

    legendx66 Moderator
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    Negan doesn't care about human life much considering how many people he murders... He doesn't even care when his men die on a personal level
     
  5. Jmverhaalen

    Jmverhaalen Member

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    I see many flaws in your Negan logic but regardless of giving half your stuff to the guy for protection, what about if your a women? Doesn't he keep all the women as sex slaves? There are women out there that would rather be dead than subject themselves to that. Also those supplies they are giving him could turn out to mean life or death. Rick and his people have proved that they can survive and handle pretty much anything thrown their way so they don't need Negan's help. Also It almost seem's as if Negan respects Rick in a messed up sort of way for standing up to him. The people that lay down and submit or try to snitch their way into his inner circle seem to end up killed like Alexandria's former leaders son(I forget his name). The giving half your stuff away mentality just doesn't seem to work when its survival of the toughest or smartest....Look at prison for an example...If you give YOUR things to any aggressive person you will eventually be passed around like the prison Bitch, but at least you will be alive, if you call that much of a life.
     
  6. Undead Tyrant

    Undead Tyrant Member

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    There is definitely a ranking system/hierarchy in his organization, this makes perfect sense really. If you don't demand respect then you wont be given any, it's not a democratic/egalitarian society where everyone is considered equally valuable. If you don't prove your usefulness then you can't be expected to be given special priveledges. Women can be equally as tough as men, we have already seen he has female soldiers in his army and I am certain the people he is keeping as slaves are hardly capable of taking care of themselves out in the wasteland.
    I don't think Negan has any personal problem with Rick, he definitely respects him, he just knows Rick and his group are too dangerous to be left to their own devices. He wants strong people like them working for him, not against him, but they are not ruthless enough to accept him as their leader.

    I am not saying I would "snitch my way" into his inner circle, I would prove my usefulness to the leader and if that would not be sufficient then too bad for me, but I am confident in my own abilities.
     
  7. Jmverhaalen

    Jmverhaalen Member

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    I can't recall any women in Negan's army but I don't read the comics more than one time through so I will take your word. I like Negan as character but in no way do I see his leadership as better than Rick's. I get what your saying when you say that he sees Rick and his people as dangerous and need to be controlled but with someone like Rick he had to know a war was inevitable especially when Negan goes around killing people in Rick's community. Also I'm not just seeing these special privileges that are given for his inner circle. Granted we don't really know much about his inner circle but if I had to guess i'd say Dwight is in it. He took Dwight's wife away and made her a whore to be passed around than burned his face for trying to run away with her. And I know you say that the "slaves are hardly capable of taking care of themselves" but even if that were true and she was totally incapable of taking care of herself and just could not pick up on anything useful she still had Dwight who is obviously capable.

    Negan is a great antagonist for comics right now and I am excited to see where this goes but, in my opinion, he is more of villain that leads other villains than a leader that could lead all types of people (good, bad, neutral) like Rick can. He also doesn't seem like he is the kind of leader that can inspire loyalty like Rick can when the odds are against him. Rick's people will follow him no matter what the odds. What happens to Negan if a stronger, better equipped, group comes up against him and the chances of them winning are not good? I would guess his people would jump at the chance to defect if it looked like Negan were to be defeated. Negan just doesn't seem to be the kind of leader that would have long-term success.
     
  8. Undead Tyrant

    Undead Tyrant Member

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    All good points. However, I think most people will side with the strongest force, the one that offers them the best chance of survival, regardless of who the leader of the group is. When the world ends, most people are willing to abandon their morals if it helps them survive.

    When Negan easily beats down Rick, while everyone is watching, it is sort of a way to demonstrate his supremacy.
    I can't comment on what Dwight is capable of yet, all we have really seen him do is kill Abraham with his crossbow, while he was completely unprepared. It doesn't really qualify as anything special to me. Anyway he punished Dwight's wife because she forgot her "role" in the Saviour's by breaking the oath she gave him, surely she must have known the rules and punishments. If she didn't feel comfortable with the arrangement then I am still convinced that Negan would let her leave on her own and never come back.

    But as I said earlier, I don't think morals as we view them apply in a post-apocalypse world anymore. There are no "good" or "evil" people, there are only people with differing opinions on how best to survive. And I believe the ones with enough ruthlessness to take out and subdue any potential threats have the best chances of survival. Even Rick has admitted that he didn't care about the majority of the people in his group, he only took lead to protect his family, if that is a "good man", then I would say the standards for "good" are pretty low.

    I imagine Negan leads his army like a Roman centurion. If his army fears him more than they fear the enemy, then there is no way they will betray him. The military disciplinary tactic of 'decimatio" is an effective method of upholding this order. How it works is, when a group of soldiers fail in battle, they are lined up and every tenth soldier is beaten to death by the other nine. If this is the price paid for failure, I imagine the price paid for betrayal would be even less enjoyable.
     
    #48 Undead Tyrant, Dec 15, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2013
  9. Neuropyramidal

    Neuropyramidal Well-Known Member

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    Psychopaths like Negan are good at making it appear that his followers 'need' him. Its just an illusion created to keep themselves in power. People like Negan would be a disease in a ZA, and would create situations that are dangerous and unstable [as we can see nicely in the comics as well]. There would always be sheep who fall for his scare tactics, fearmongering, and bullying, and will end up foolish enough to follow him, thinking he is their protector, but in the end following a man like this is a death warrant, and only after his death will the Kool-Aid drinking lambs realize that there are more stable ways to build a new community, without the perils of a volatile internal structure which really does not much more than create dangerous enemies for the group and spawn animosity and rebellion among themselves. Hopefully if there's ever a true apocalypse, most people will be wise enough to avoid this situation. And also I hope their will be limburger cheese.
     
  10. Tony Davis

    Tony Davis Administrator
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    I get the feeling TV Negan will be the new Shane on these boards when he appears, if that makes sense
     
  11. Jmverhaalen

    Jmverhaalen Member

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    I'm excited to see what the show does with Negan. The governor was so different on the show than he was in the comics or even the books so far for that matter. I'm still excited to see how the comics conclude the war. I'd guess their is about a 90 percent chance Negan is killed with the other chances being him getting away and reappearing much down the line or him taking orders from another person.Possibly the first leader of Alexandria that was said to be killed but was actually exiled, yet I believe Rick is the only one who knows his that. I believe he will play a roll somewhere down the line.
     
  12. Neuropyramidal

    Neuropyramidal Well-Known Member

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    It could be interesting if Negan ran off instead of getting killed. It would be realistic. In reality, things often get left open ended and our problems don't get nicely wrapped up and solved by the end of story arcs. :p. It could be fun to know that Negan might lurk out there somewhere over the course of the next 50 issues.
     
  13. BatmansHooker

    BatmansHooker Well-Known Member

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    Just got around to reading this issue.

    It was pretty good. I liked Ezekiel's monologue a lot. Glad Shiva's gone, having a tiger around never sat well with me.

    Carl's hit puberty! Wonder if it's an unintentional fault in trying to make him look more mature, or if Carl's being rapidly aged intentionally.
     
  14. mtamborra

    mtamborra Member

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    LAME ISSUE!

    I do not need a whole back story about a Tiger that we never even got a chance to get attached to. It was like "ok, this dude's tiger is dead"

    can you say FILLER?
     
  15. legendx66

    legendx66 Moderator
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    I don't think filler means what you think it does.
    But the issue had no backstory on Shiva at all... She was in like 2 pages.

    If a third of the alliance and 2 savior outposts being annihilated is filler to you then ok. lol
     
    #55 legendx66, Dec 19, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2013

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