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2020 current racial troubles

Discussion in 'Debaters' started by Morgotha, Jun 16, 2020.

  1. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    AFAIK I'm NOT lumping all leftie groups as antifa, I'm listing people who *call themselves* antifa as antifa.

    Meh, call people whatever is easiest. I'd do that with the Wuhan virus, but then PepperAnn would scold me :(.
     
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  2. Jama

    Jama Well-Known Member

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    Gotta love all of the mental gymnastics that people are willing to go through to portray antifa in a more positive light.

    "Look guys, all of the crime and destruction they are engaging in is ok. They're fighting against fascists, so antifa must be good, right? They're going to hunt down all of the fascists and wipe them off the planet, just like the... oh, uhhhh. Wait."

    Why? Referring to a virus by its place of origin has always been a standard practice. Is that now forbidden now because Trump called it that? Don't answer that. It wasn't a serious question. lol
     
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  3. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    I certainly wouldn't want Pepper to scold you, lol. ;)
     
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  4. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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  5. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    More than 118 police officers have left the Seattle police dept. this year with the whole "defund the police" thing going on. That's in a department of 1200 people. That's 10% of the department of experienced police officers leaving the city! LOL, I really can't see crime going *down* in Seattle because of this. All I can say to them is "you wanted it, you got it".

    "
    At least 118 officers have separated from the Seattle police department this year, according to a report on Thursday.

    The separations included lateral-moves to other agencies and retirements. The bulk included those who resigned.

    https://www.foxnews.com/us/seattle-...-with-118-officers-leaving-department-in-2020
     
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  6. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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  7. Jama

    Jama Well-Known Member

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    This is what happens when you start villainizing good people who have decided to work at a dangerous a stressful job, but take pride in their sworn duty to serve the community. The good people behind those badges are people with feelings, and if the leaders of the community are going to treat them like garbage, then why would they want to stick around? They can go police in a community where they are wanted or work private security somewhere.
     
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  8. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    The part that really bothers me is that for these people this is their *career*, not just some McJob they picked up to get some spending money. To have to quit that and find something else to do or somewhere else to go? It's terrible.
     
  9. Jama

    Jama Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't agree with you more. That point is exactly why the number is at 10% and not 50% or higher.

    I don't mean that as a 'matter of fact' though. Obviously that's just an opinion. But I suspect that it's the same principle as anyone else in other professions where they don't like their job... They can't just quit and go do something else. There's an investment that's made with time, money, training, knowledge, etc. And there's countless other factors to consider that may effect one's livelihood. Moving somewhere else might be out of the question for some.

    I also suspect that if those other considerations I mentioned above were not a factor, then we would see a much larger percentage of police resignations in these particular cities.
     
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  10. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, all the police departments have to do is start looking at their policies and practices to evaluate if there isn’t some truth to the charge of systemic racism. It’s a matter of possibly rewriting those policies and retraining officers.

    Then they need to break down that blue wall of silence. Don’t tell me that they don’t know who the rotten apples on the force are. Get rid of them otherwise everyone suffers.

    I’m the meantime, I think it’s an excellent time to recruit as many minorities and younger people as possible to stanch the flow of those currently leaving their jobs. Then you can start with new people from the ground up. Tabula rasa if you will. Quitting is a voluntary action. If you’re not happy, leave. People change jobs, even careers all the time. If you don’t feel you have that luxury work within the system to make things better.
     
  11. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    That systemic racism stuff is a crock. Have you SEEN these departments? Most of them have the chief of police as a black man, and half of them seem to be black *women*! To say that these departments haven't been trying like crazy to recruit women and minorities for years would just be wrong.
     
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  12. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    So? While many police departments have Black, Asian, and Hispanic members on the force, and are indeed headed in many cases by such, the culture of American policing needs to change. That apparently isn’t easy and it’s not like this is a new revelation. I came up with an interesting article that is one example of that....

    https://www.startribune.com/years-b...opping-misconduct-by-a-veteran-cop/572201192/

    I haven’t checked each case but it seems that with the cases that have made national news lately, it’s white cops over aggressing against minorities.

    My thought was that it is a perfect time to open up career opportunities for young people of all races, but especially those in minorities if the older veterans think all this sudden scrutiny is cramping their style. With new policies in place and the new recruits being trained from the ground up only knowing the new policies then hopefully some of these kinds of incidents will start to decrease.
     
  13. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    It won't do any good to try and change the police if the community isn't willing to change its own actions concurrently with them

    [​IMG]
     
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  14. Jama

    Jama Well-Known Member

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    And if new policies are in place and police departments hire fresh new recruits who are mostly poc and nothing changes and people still hate cops.... then what's the excuse going to be?
     
  15. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Who knows what the results of trying anything new will be until it’s done.
     
  16. Jama

    Jama Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but if that's your answer and your case for why change is needed in police departments,... Then thanks, but no thanks. This isn't a game of roulette where we just place our chips on any random idea and hope that the ball lands on our number. We need real solutions with proven alternative methods that actually work.

    This is why none of this makes no sense to me... You say that the police system is "systemically racist", but most cops are good cops. If that's truly the case, then by your own logic, most cops AREN'T actually good cops if they're all holding careers in a systemically racist industry which the vast majority of them are proud to be a part of.

    You say we need more Black, Latino, Asian, etc. cops.... What good do you think that's going to accomplish in your mind? Many big city police forces actually have more officers who are poc than white officers. LAPD has 35% white police. What magical low number of whiteys will help turn the corner and make the LAPD more respected and less hated? 25%? 15%? 0%?

    You say that we need these fresh new faces joining the police with new policies and new perspectives. Who are these people and where are they coming from?

    If your kids wanted to join Chicago PD would you feel good about that? I doubt it. I know I wouldn't. Why? Because of the obvious, it's very dangerous. lol. But also because people are being told that the police are bad. That they are racist. That they shouldn't get funding or they should be abolished. That they are the cause of so many problems and are used as a tool of white supremacy.

    Honestly, do you actually believe that a young person is going to sign up for that right now? Or a year from now, or 5 years from now, if we have BLM, antifa, people in local government, congress, and to a lesser degree- people like you saying how broken and bad the police are? Who's going to join that police force? No. One.

    And your solution to bring about this brave new world, is throw caution to the wind and say that we gotta try something new just because. We don't know what's going to happen. It could be a complete disaster. But we won't know until we tear everything down and then build it back up... and then they'll be no more problems and all of these new young people will like being police officers and everyone will like how they police.

    I don't know... it just seems to me like a lot of stuff that sounds great on paper, but won't amount to a hill of beans when put to practice. And I'm not talking about what you're saying in particular. I just mean all of the talk about this subject happening out there.
     
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  17. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    The cops' fault, who else's?
     
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  18. Jama

    Jama Well-Known Member

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    <smacks forehead> I should have known!
     
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  19. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    When something is broken it needs to be fixed. Pure and simple. Society evolves and that includes how we police our citizens. It amazes me how people want to do the same old things over and over expecting different results.....everyone knows what that’s been called.

    I do think that the system has some inherently racist aspects to it. We’ve heard it expressed here that people of color, especially blacks are responsible for most of the crime. Their blackness always makes them suspect no matter what, even if they are harmlessly sleeping in their car or jogging down the street.

    When men and women join the force I don’t necessarily believe they start out prejudiced however if the bad culture is there they eventually become infected. The force is run somewhat like a military operation. The rank and file are expected to follow the chain of command and it’s never good to buck the system. If a superior officer expects certain behaviors or actions from his officers they’re going to get it. An officer and their partners are like a married couple. One will rarely speak up even if they see misconduct. I hope that is changing but the police tend to close ranks rather than admit to wrong doing as it’s often been demonstrated.

    Where do new recruits come from? Does anyone need a job during the economic unrest created by this pandemic? Good pay and benefits? If I was a young man or woman, I’d be more interested in fire rather than the police, if I could pass the qualifying tests and no prospects for a college education or apprenticeship in the trades but why not? Sure it’s a little scary perhaps right now but I’d go for it. With joining the police, fire department and/or military, you always have to accept the possibility of encountering dangerous situations. People have always stepped up.

    Abolishing policing is utopian and not based in reality. Refunding should be the call rather than defunding which gives the wrong impression IMO. I don’t believe police forces need all the military type weapons and vehicles they seem to be acquiring over the past few years. Instead the money needs to be channeled into retraining, severely restricting certain procedures like no knock warrants, unnecessary harassment based on racial profiling, banning choke holds and other practices leading to fatalities especially in non-violent situations. I also like the idea of police review boards Independent of the department itself.We also need mental health professionals that can be mobilized to work with the police when indicated.

    I could go on but we’ve hashed this out before, over and over and I know the results are going to be the same. I just refuse to be so resigned and reform blocking. Maybe it’s baby steps at first but it can be accomplished. It has been done in some places with good results already. Anyone can do the research if they care to. Let me start off with a few articles that get you thinking even if you don’t agree with the conclusions.

    https://cops.usdoj.gov/html/dispatch/08-2016/police_reform.asp

    https://www.americanprogress.org/is...0/07/16/487721/assessing-state-police-reform/

    https://www.vox.com/2020/6/1/21277013/police-reform-policies-systemic-racism-george-floyd

    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/how-actually-fix-americas-police/612520/
     
  20. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    And that's all well and good, but like you say, injecting new people into a broken system eventually will make members of that group infected as well.

    According to FBI statistics, on a proportional basis black young men do indeed commit violent crimes far in excess of other races. That means the black community is broken as well.

    The point being you can't just "fix" the police department as they'll be reinfected by the broken black community, and you can't "fix" the broken black community without fixing the broken police department. If you want results, you need to fix BOTH of them at the same time.

    Until people are willing to admit both sides have serious internal problems and try to fix both of them at the same time nothing will change, and given that even *suggesting* that the black community needs to fix itself is considered racism by the left, the chance of that happening is small to non-existent -- at least IMO.
     
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