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2020 election AKA The Biden Thread

Discussion in 'Debaters' started by Morgotha, Feb 3, 2019.

  1. tink

    tink Well-Known Member

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    The Trump administration attempted to roll back almost all the regulations that made our air and water cleaner, both within the US and around the world.

    And the tariffs didn't work because tariffs don't work. They might have worked better once upon a time but in a global economy they won't work. we have set things up so that certain things are made by certain countries and other things by other countries and manufacturing doesn't just turn on a dime. And for the most part tariffs just mean you pay more for stuff and nothing changes, and the other country puts tariffs on you so you're screwed coming and going.
     
    #2961 tink, May 3, 2021
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
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  2. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    No, that's the mean of the group. The median is the 50% value of the group. In incomes, a few HIGH earning people will skew the data to the right - IOW the median will look *lower* and the mean will look *higher*, but the *mean* is what is getting dragged all over the place, the median is still the income that 50% of the people fall below, and 50% of the people are above. It's a much more stable value than the mean.

    For example, say you have 3 people on the golf course and want to discuss their wealth as a group. The people are Bill Gates at 100 billion, Jeff Bezos at 100 billion, and the person cutting the grass and chasing gophers with literally zero dollars to his name. Their mean income as a group would be 66 Billion dollars, roughly, but their median would be 100 billion - a more accurate picture of how things really are in that group (and quite a bummer for Bill Murray).

    I also disagree about the size of a group affecting the median more. In ANY distribution, the larger the sample, the better.
     
  3. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Part of the Paris Accord is that developed countries (meaning Europe and the US) will pay for cleanup and technology transfers in developing countries, and both India and China are included in the latter group. IOW, we get to pay China's way.

    Again, the world can't cooperate when it comes to them putting out effort against their short-term interests, but they are more than happy to put out effort to tell US to act against OUR best interests, and Senile Joe is happy to agree - hey, it's not his money.
     
  4. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    The tariff idea was my mild one. My more radical one would be to stop every country from purchasing any goods made in China. They'd change as they'd break before the rest of the world, and then we'd have nice clean air and water and land again.
     
  5. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Hah! We’d break long before them. We wouldn’t last without our consumer goods the length of time it would take to see real change. 50/50 until they committed to change. It would be an interesting showdown though.

    *In his address to Congress, “senile” Joe encouraged buying American made products.
     
    #2965 purriwinkle, May 3, 2021
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
  6. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Oh, we'd last. Remember the Trumpers in the capitol? Remember the Antifa and blm people burning down cities? I think EVERYONE in the US could be convinced not to buy Chinese stuff if it was made clear to them that the reason their loved one is dead and they don't have a job because of covid - is the fault of the Chinese government.
     
  7. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Nah. Maybe. We have a lot of gullible people but any indignation will be short lived. You’ve missed the point of how integrated our consumer goods, whether they’re made or assembled in China are. Some interesting reading.

    https://www.mgtrading.com/what-percentage-of-us-imports-is-made-in-china/

    http://jiesworld.com/international_corporations_in_china.htm

    https://www.itimanufacturing.com/made-vs-assembled-america-issue/

    https://blog.cheapism.com/american-products-not-made-in-america-16404/

    YET.....

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...ade-china-product-goes-us-workers-businesses/

    Complicated. In the meantime I’ll be waiting for notification that parts are available to have my drivers side Takata airbag replaced. I realize Takata was originally a Japanese co.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidk...-consumers-still-driving-with-deadly-airbags/
     
    #2967 purriwinkle, May 3, 2021
    Last edited: May 3, 2021
  8. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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    I haven’t smoked pot in a while but I’m getting closer to needing to. Median is not a very accurate picture of any group as a whole. It lumps those with 6,7,8 figure salaries in with those making just over median, 50% and gives no indication of how many are just bellow median vs how many are homeless. Just 50%. The more people you have on each side of median, the more you need on the opposite side to move it. Smaller groups need fewer people to move the median. If your population is 100,000, 20,000 people making 75,000, can push you to a much higher median. If your population is 180,000,000, 20,000 people wont budge the needle. Even averages are just meant to give a general idea not a detailed exposition. A more accurate gauge would be if he gave salary ranges and what percentage of each population fell into each range. If this guy went through all the trouble of research and writing a paper and chose the least accurate way to present his data, that probably means the data doesn’t support his argument. Which is Minorities make too much for America to be racist. As others pointed out, salary is not a great measure of racism. It can have an effect but having a good salary is no indication of whether or not you are experiencing racism. He is also making a common white supremacist excuse that they cant be racist if others voted in a black guy. The subtext is that race was a factor in their voting. “Being black should have precluded Obama from becoming president. It didn’t, so we’re not racist.” Any article that is trying to prove racism doesn’t exist should be a big red flag from the jump. Even more, it is trying to present the idea that whites are actually suffering. Another WS trope that whites are suffering due to immigrants taking better paying jobs. Im fully prepared for you to show me a picture of the author and him be African American. It still doesn’t change my arguments on this misleading article.


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  9. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    I understand how integrated things are. I *also* understand that the longer one waits the more integrated things become. Better to take our medicine now and put the brakes on than to wait. After all, if we don't have the stomach to say, "stop" now and mean it, we aren't going to 10 years from now.

    If that's the case, we might as well be honest and admit we're going to let China keep doing what it wants.
     
  10. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    I don't get what you're saying about why you think the median is inaccurate. In a way, the median is the most accurate way of saying what really IS the average of something we have (as for small groups it's not thrown off by a huge outlier like the mean is).

    Right, the more people you have, the less influence a few people have on it. That's a GOOD thing for the average, as a few people on either end of the spectrum don't change really change the "average", do they?

    If your population is 100,000 and you have 20,000 people with a higher salary that SHOULD move the needle more than 20,000 people in a population of 180,000,000!!! In the first case that 20,000 represents 20% of the population, and in the second case it represents like .001%, so, yes, the median is accurately representing the data. LOL, if the data shows that after a few years most foreigners who come here really do make more than the average American DESPITE being outsiders and not being native speakers of the language, that tells you something, and that something is NOT "America is a racist place".

    What I would take from this article isn't that it's a lie, somehow, and that America is just the most terrible place ever. What I would take from it is that if you come here and are willing to really work - you'll get a job and probably do better than you would have in the country you came from. That's a pretty impressive thing, don't you think? Maybe if people in this country quit trying to turn over every rock to find whatever bad things they could and just started studying and working harder they'd do better as well, and would have no NEED to blame their failure on racism - because they wouldn't fail in the first place.

    Oh, and I'm all for you finding salary data with ranges and averages if you don't believe a commonly accepted value is good enough, and I'll look at it if you want to do the work and present it.
     
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  11. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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    Median is not supposed to be a full measurement of anything as it breaks down a complicated set of stats to ONE stat. Half above, half below. Even average is supposed to be a quick cursory glimpse. I didn’t research a full set of stats because I didn’t write an article. This guy either didn’t think full presentation of stats helped his argument or he didn’t do as much research as he purports. It’s terribly misleading either way. He is also equating high salaries for some as lack of racism for all. A wealthy person can still experience racism. Actually that’s another WS trope. When celebrities or athletes of color try to bring attention to racism, they are met with “Your rich, shut up”. As if their bank account somehow makes any racism they experience not real or legitimate. This article feels like a thinly disguised attempt to tell people “Pay no attention to man behind the curtain”.


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  12. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, yeah, what baloney.

    I post something saying people are coming here and making more than the people who live here. You first say they aren't, and then give up when it's reasonable to say they are, so you switch the goal posts to say that there can still be racism even for people who make lots of money. LOL, I'll tell you one thing, if you have to be a victim of racism, it's better to be a *rich* one than a poor one! If nothing else you should have come away from the article saying, "I wonder why immigrants are making more money than native born Americans in such a "systemically racist" place."

    BTW, what country with our immigrant profile do you think has LESS racism than the U.S.? Secondly, if the US is such a terrible, racist place, why do so many people keep trying to come here? Why don't they go to places WITHOUT the "racism" found here?
     
  13. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Because they believe in the hype on the Statue of Liberty, the promises not yet fully realized in the constitution but they hope they’ll beat the odds and maybe cause they watch too many American sitcoms? o_O
     
  14. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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    Wait, what? I never said they weren’t and I never gave up. I said the median doesn’t tell us how well a population is doing. I repeated that median is a terrible indication of income in any population. I added that salary has little to do with whether or not a person can experience racism. And then pointed other flaws in that same articles reasoning. It used common WS tropes to pretend racism doesn’t exist. Now, YOU are moving the goalposts requiring ME to Name a LESS racist country. Even if i said Canada, that has absolutely NO bearing on racism in THIS country. Why do people want to come to the US? Because its great. As great as it is, that doesn’t mean its perfect. Racism is still a very real problem that needs improvement.


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  15. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Nah. It's because they believe what their relatives who came here before them say the country's like.
     
    #2975 Morgotha, May 5, 2021
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  16. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    o_O If you think the median is a terrible indicator of income, what do you think is *better*? What do you think the standard should be?

    "Racism" doesn't come from nowhere. People are "racist" against Asians and Indians because they perceive them to do *better* than them on tests in school, etc. In fact, a couple of the Ivy's have been sued for discriminating against Asians for just this reason. The way to solve this "racism" would be for the majority students to work harder and so be equal with them, as it's their laziness that's keeping them back, it's not the fault of those who are diligent.

    Similarly with the perceptions of crime. If people overall view a particular group as being more likely to be criminals, it's most likely because if one looks at the numbers they most likely ARE more likely to be criminals. The way to solve this "racism"? Get the people of that group to quit committing crimes. Just telling the population not to believe the numbers (or their own eyes) isn't going to do anything as the underlying problem is a real problem, and until it's solved, the perception will remain.

    What's my point? The point is the "racism" in the US is based on something real, whether appropriate or not. People aren't accusing Asians of all being criminals, and they aren't accusing other groups of always being the top in their class. If minority groups want to rid themselves of labels they consider to be negative, they need to quit performing the actions that make them appear that way.
     
  17. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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    Lol, because tvs, newspapers, cellphones, computers and magazines don’t exist in other countries? The US is great. I think the word it out.


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  18. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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    As I previously said, more information is clearer than lumping large numbers into small categories. A better indication would be to show what percentage of each particular group is in each income range. But again, income is a poor indicator of racism. People in ANY income bracket can experience racism. They are two separate issues.

    As for the rest, i mostly agree with you, especially the part where you admit racism is entrenched in our culture based on perceptions. But, you try to cite “numbers” as justification for racism and fault each minority for creating their own stereotypes, blaming lack of effort on their part to buck stereotypes. Racism isn’t citing numbers. Its treating people differently because of preconceived notions. Ironically, you dont take into consideration thar fact that racism is a white stereotype based on “numbers” and aren’t blaming whites for lack of effort to change that stereotype. Instead blame minorities for any racism they experience. We cant eradicate racism but we can limit its impact. Denying its existence will only impede our progress.


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  19. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes: Of course they exist. However, I'd bet that someone who might want to come here won't be nearly as influenced by watching "Friends" on t.v. as they would be by their cousin calling and saying, "hey, get up here as soon as you can, they're still hiring at $10 an hour!" - If you live in a place where the average income is $2 per *day* that's a mighty big incentive!
     
    #2979 Morgotha, May 5, 2021
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  20. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    IOW, there is no better single number like the median to give an overall sense of how things stand. Thanks for agreeing with me. And "yes" of course breaking the data down and making a couple page summary of income distribution will give a much more accurate picture, but it's hardly a "snapshot" of what's going on.

    Sure, any income bracket can experience racism. Like I said though, if you have to experience racism anyway it's better to be rich than poor.

    On racism, the rev. Jesse Jackson (a black man) and outspoken on the subject of race, once said,

    “There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps... then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”

    ― Jesse Jackson

    The point being that everyone makes judgements about their safety, etc., that's not "racism"- unless you think Rev. Jackson is "racist" against his own people. Likewise, I'd walk on the other side of the street if I saw a bunch of skinheads playing death metal music and acting up, does that make me racist against white people? Prejudiced against skinheads playing death metal? Perhaps. For all I know they just came from volunteering at a homeless shelter, how do I know?

    This isn't a game or an exercise though, IRL one mistake in judgement might be your last mistake. People are wired to be prudent and stay alive, that's not racism.

    LOL, and what on Earth would possess you to say that white people haven't been trying to change racial stereotypes, do away with racism, etc.??? The past 75 years have been nothing BUT white people trying to redress the wrongs of the past! If you can't accept that, I doubt if we have enough common ground to have a conversation.

    Finally, racism isn't just a white thing. Every culture and skin tone has racism and hate for someone else. That's just how it is.
     

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