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2020 election AKA The Biden Thread

Discussion in 'Debaters' started by Morgotha, Feb 3, 2019.

  1. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes: Please. This was about 6 families being evicted for not paying their rent. It's not some big conspiracy between the Knights Templar and the Rothschilds. Your own article said,

    "In the Sheikh Jarrah case, the evictions are based on the claim that the residents have not paid rent to the owner of the properties, now an Israeli nongovernmental organization called Nahalat Shimon."

    They didn't pay their rent and were being kicked out. Happens every day in every country in the world. It's not a reason to launch 1500 rocket at innocent people. Again, if Hamas was so concerned about their well-being, why didn't Hamas pay their rent *for* them instead of launching a bunch of rockets and trying to kill people who were unrelated to the current problem?

    LOL, and you know, if our government came along and redistricted someplace and told all the black people who lived there they were evicted and white people would be given their homes, I bet you'd say that was unfair to the black homeowners and they should be compensated or given their homes back. Why then don't you feel the Israelis whose homes got taken away from them and given to the Palestinians in 1948 should be given *their* homes back? What's the difference?
     
  2. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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    They didn’t owe rent. The families of the OLD owners won an Israeli court decision to reclaim property lost in the division of Jerusalem. Effectively erasing the agreements of the formation of west bank. Any one with records that their family USED to own property could charge rent or evict Arabs in an area that was agreed upon to under Palestinian jurisdiction under previous negotiations. If they were never paid, that is on the Israeli Government. Kind of like when trump took property along the southern border for his wall. I didn’t agree with it but we paid those property owners. They were compensated by the government. Israel needed to compensate those families. Instead, they made a ruling that could have had NO OTHER outcome other than protest. Which Israel responded to exactly like they wanted to, with massively disproportionate air strikes. It is a “private” real estate dispute directly created by the Israeli supreme court giving homes back to former owners, again, without compensating the current owners. It is a government sponsored land grab that began with six families but would include any property that had records of old ownership.


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  3. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Their law said they owed rent. Who are you (or the Palestinians) to say they don't?

    What this sounds like to me is the nuts that say you don't have to pay income taxes because of X or Y that happened in the past. In the end though, if you don't pay your taxes the .gov throws you in jail, and that's how it is, because the government and the people of today make the law. Same thing in Israel. The government says they owe rent, they owe rent. They should have just paid it instead of seeing how many deaths they could turn their non-payment into.
     
  4. tink

    tink Well-Known Member

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    Imagine if Mexico decided last year that every Mexican who used to own property in Texas should have been receiving rent payments from every Texan who lived/lives on their former property since the war ended in 1836. And did not allow any Texans to say they were not responsible for these rents. And sent the military in to Texas to evict everyone living there so they could give the land to Mexican families.

    How do you think that would go? Any different than what you're seeing on the West Bank?

    And your X and Y scenario is exactly the opposite of what happened.
     
  5. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    If Mexico took over Texas they could well do that, or they could just march the Texans off their land at gunpoint and say "tough beans on you". If some foreign government takes over and gives your land away to someone else you have no recompense. OTOH, if YOUR government later ends up victorious and reclaims the land? Why wouldn't they give their people their land back if they could find the original owners?
     
  6. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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    I like that example but i think it would be closer if we used the Native Americans. They were living here, got slaughtered, herded onto reservations and told “We won. Stay here. This is your land.” Then a couple years later they came back and said “Ya, Now we want this land too. The agreement we made means jack. If you resist, you will be butchered.” The Israelis agreed to let the Palestinians govern the West Bank and Gaza strip. Like reservations. Now they are reneging on their agreement and using what they knew would be certain backlash to justify unleashing a barrage rockets the Palestinians couldn’t possible stave off.

    I didn’t negotiate the West Bank. Israel did. Now they violated their own agreement. Did Palestinians violate it as well? Yes. Did they instigate it at times? Yes. So did Israel. Its a back and forth game of “Well you started it.” With violators on both sides. Pretending that this is one sided by either party is not reality. Its just trying to justify actions that shouldn’t be justifiable.


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  7. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Um... The Jews are the ones who are like the Native Americans, not the "Palestinians". They were the original owners of the land and were minding their own business in Israel until the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in AD 70ish and never recovered. Various people controlled the region, and the area was then under control of the Ottomans until the 1920's when the Brittish were placed in control of the region and called it Palestine. The Jews though have as good a claim at being the *original* inhabitants of Jerusalem as anyone. They were given back their own land by the allies after WWII, not given someone else's, and now you want to take it away from them again and give it to one of the groups of people that took it by force from them previously! That sounds pretty much like the treatment the Indians received at the hands of the .gov. Not cool.

    And boo hoo on the "Palestinians" and their media allies who are now crying about rockets now being fired back at them. Did you already forget that the Palestinians are the ones who fired 1500+ rockets into Israel within the last week? The Israelis at least have the decency in their response to the Palestinian attack to try and target military sites, the Palestinians just fired their rockets randomly in to Israel!

    And "no" it's not a "they're both at fault" situation. There is NO justification for the level of violence unleashed by the Palestinians on Israel based on the Israelis prior actions.
     
  8. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine
    They have been tussling for thousands of years. With control over the region changing hands hundreds of times. It is the birth place of the three major religions. We will never KNOW who was there first. So calling anyone the original owner is always going to be under dispute. So if we go by modern times, when the Israelis were given back their territory after WW II, they pushed the Palestinians off “their” land and attempted to drive them out completely. The Palestinians stood their ground in Gaza and West bank. For, what?, 80 years they have been fighting for those areas but have actually been fighting for thousands of years. In those 80 years, YES, BOTH sides have taken inappropriate action. YES, BOTH sides have initiated attacks that resulted in retaliation. After many ceasefires, BOTH sides have violated agreements. The Palestinians aren’t even trying to retake Israel. They are only trying to maintain the areas in which they have negotiated autonomy. Israel is violating that autonomy by taking ownership of an area that is supposed to be independent. Not a separate country, but autonomous, like a reservation. I am in no way justifying Palestinian assaults. I am in no way justifying Israeli assaults. I am simply saying neither side side can play innocent. They Israeli government overreached their own agreement (intentionally?). Palestinians reacted (overreacted?). Israel overreacted (definitely).


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  9. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    If we read the biblical account :rolleyes: it says the Israelites took the land after their exodus from Egypt from the Canaanites who were already living there. It’s one thing to say “God” promised you the land but I’m sure the people already living there were doing their version of WTF??? Frankly, the whole situation gives me a head ache.
     
  10. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Immediately after WWII when Israel declared itself a nation *every single* surrounding Arab nation went to war to try and drive them out -several times. In spite of that, Israel survived.

    All of that aside, if you're willing to say that we can't know who really owns things, and the law of the land *now* currently says the Palestinians need to pay up or be evicted, what's your problem with it? Tell them to obey their legitimate government and quit rioting whenever they decide something against you.
     
  11. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Chicken, egg, its all scrambled now.


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  12. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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    So, genocide is the law of the land. Why are they complaining that they are getting killed? Why should citizens protest laws they disagree with? Why should people want to live in the land they were born in? You are waaaay oversimplifying things. Israel has to value human life just like the Palestinians have to. Saying only one side has to is ridiculous. I don’t have the answer. I haven’t read 7 books like Kushner. But clearly Israel created an excuse to bomb the crap out of “Military targets”. If bombs are legitimate negotiation tactics, then they cant complain when Palestinians use them as well. But of course they recognize the inappropriateness of them at that time. If at any time in the future, Palestinians overtake Israel, is it fair game to bomb civilian settlements because they are no longer in power? Did the jews understand and and accept were they were not in power. Of course not. They protested and rebelled plenty over the last several thousand years. There will never be peace if either side, including Israel, thinks driving the other completely from the country or genocide is justified. Neither is.


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  13. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    What source of historical information are you familiar with for the time period that you like better than the Biblical account? If the answer is "none", then what's with the ":rolleyes:"?

    To your point, remember that the Israelites inhabited that region pretty much forever as far as human lifetimes go - from 700 b.c.or so? That's a mighty long time.

    Abraham came down from Babylon, so that's where I'd put the Israelites real entry in to Israel. They were already in the Israel region (IMO, and I don't claim to be a mid-East scholar) before going to Egypt. Remember that the reason they were in Egypt at the time is that they were escaping a severe famine in their own land (Jacob was sold by his brothers into Egypt as a slave and subsequently became a powerful man in Egypt and fed his brothers that previously sold him off (thanks to the blessings of God:D). Anyway, after escaping from the Pharaoh they returned to the region they were in previously. I think it's fair to say that the Canaanites and the Israelis shared overlapping spaces before the famine, and then after returning from Egypt God told them where to go and what to take.
     
  14. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    The :rolleyes: is to signify that the Biblical account is not necessarily accurate history. It tells the story of the Jewish people and it’s perspective is no doubt slanted in their favor.

    Primitive man may have believed in an other worldly power actively directing them but in today’s world I have serious doubts about anyone who says either “God” or the “devil” for that matter, spoke to them and made them do anything.
     
  15. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    I agree about treating the Bible as a straight historical text, but OTOH, they were trying to record things as they knew them. I don't think they were deliberately inserting falsehoods - who would, if they were a priest transcribing the Word of their God?

    Even back in Biblical days God wasn't talking to everyone. A dozen people maybe throughout recorded history? Not many. I'd say the main difference between then and now is how many people are willing to *listen* to God's message.

    And I hear what you're saying about people who say God or Hillary told them to do something, and I'd also bet there were quite a few people in ancient times that felt the same way. That doesn't mean they were correct then, or now, though.
     
  16. tink

    tink Well-Known Member

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    lol, biblical days? In virtually every case it's much more likely that the people 'talking to god' were mentally ill. Same as today.
     
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  17. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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    In all fairness, some of them were talking to bushes.


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  18. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    An awful lot of people talk to God all the time, that doesn't make them mentally ill. Granted, if you hear God talking to YOU you've either been singled out for something important... or your cheese has likely slid off your cracker.
     
  19. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    You implied he's nuts, not me.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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    Hahahaha. Touché


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