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2020 election AKA The Biden Thread

Discussion in 'Debaters' started by Morgotha, Feb 3, 2019.

  1. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Biden just called Putin a war criminal. He actually said that. Considering some things our Presidents have done, such as firebombing Dresden and nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki, all of which knowingly killed a ton of civilians, it seems kind of a strange thing for Biden to say. What does he think Putin's doing that's worse than this:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    or this?

    [​IMG]

    "
    President Joe Biden called Vladimir Putin a "war criminal" on Wednesday just hours after Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy appealed to the U.S. Congress for more assistance in the fight against Russian forces invading his country.

    The president had initially said "no" when asked by Fox News reporter Jacqui Heinrich if he considers Putin a war criminal, but circled back about 30 seconds later and said, "Did you ask me whether I would call… Oh, I, I think he is a war criminal."

    https://www.foxnews.com/world/president-biden-calls-putin-war-criminal-invading-ukraine
     
  2. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    No dear, try to keep up. We’re talking about two different things happening. The world wide pandemic caused supply chain disruptions which led to inflation once the effects lessened and pent up demand for goods could not be met. Quickly rising gas prices have been effected by Putin’s invasion of Ukraine. One on top of the other. It’s not that difficult if you think about it.
     
  3. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that’s his opinion but he isn’t alone. For instance, The President of Poland said this:

    "It is obvious to us that, in Ukraine, Russians are committing war crimes," Duda said.
    https://www.npr.org/2022/03/16/1087011897/biden-putin-war-criminal

    Who sent the Russian soldiers there?

    Somehow I’m not surprised you support what Putin is doing in Ukraine and are making excuses for his unprovoked attack.
     
  4. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Nope. "Just in time" production and shipping caused prices to spike during covid, and our rising gas prices were caused by the left wing people and governments of the United States that are actively trying to shut down domestic oil and gas production *even now* when they know there are shortages. Remember all the goods sitting in port of Long Beach (CA)? One of the biggest and busiest ports in the world, and they couldn't get the goods off the boats. Not because of covid, but because their government wanted to be "green" and restricted the types and age of trucks that were legally allowed to unload ships to the point where when more trucks were suddenly needed... there were none available. IOW, the problem wasn't "covid" it was the left political wing and the idiots that keep voting for them.

    If we had actual reserves of goods produced in foreign countries, supply chain disruptions wouldn't hurt us. If we had extra oil production and refinery capacity Putin's actions wouldn't be affecting us domestically. It's not that difficult if you think about it.
     
  5. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Wait a minute. You said I made an excuse for his unprovoked attack? When did I do that? I didn't. I don't support what Putin is doing in Ukraine and you know it.

    That's entirely different than saying he's a war criminal, though. You're just trying to shift the focus on to me rather than admitting your boy Biden said something stupid.

    BTW. considering the number of innocent civilian lives lost in Dresden and Hiroshima, *do you* consider the US (and British) rulers to be war criminals? If not, why not? The scope of the innocent lives they've killed is WAY beyond what Putin's soldiers are doing.
     
  6. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    A very good article on the current state of energy in the US. If you read the article, the first few paragraphs are the usual fox stuff, but after that is a bunch of input from various small businesses, farmers, restaurant owners, etc., and how energy cost changes are affecting them, and will soon affect us as the costs get passed through. The other thing about the article is that these people overall aren't blaming Putin or Covid, but put the blame on our government's policies for our current troubles.

    https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/small-businesses-gas-prices-biden-energy-policies
     
  7. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Some people live in their own little fantasy world but as my aunt used to say, it takes all types. Believe what you want. I don’t happen to agree but that’s life.
     
  8. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    You claimed that the United States actions to end the Second World War made us war criminals. Maybe one can second guess the decisions made 50+ years later but you might like to read about what led to the decision to drop those bombs at the time.

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Trumans-decision-to-use-the-bomb-712569

    While nuclear bombs are not being deployed now in Ukraine, try and justify why Putin has been going out of his way to bomb civilian targets. In an unprovoked invasion. What exactly would you call a world leader who does that?

    Hitler and Hirohito brought what happened to their countries and the territories they annexed on themselves as they were the aggressors. Besides all the soldiers lost, and the collateral damage incurred by civilians by being in harms way, let’s not forget the 6 million lives lost to Hitler’s “ethnic cleansing” who were not only non combatants but were unable to defend themselves against an increasingly immoral and hostile government and you want to insinuate the Allied Forces we’re just as culpable as the Axis Powers? :eek:
     
  9. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    I most certainly did NOT say our actions in WWII made us war criminals, as I don't believe we are. What I said was that if our actions in WWII are not considered war crimes, than what Putin is doing now isn't either.

    On Putin's reason for invasion, here's a map of NATO countries:

    [​IMG]
    The yellow is the "old" NATO, and the orange is the "new" NATO. If you'll remember the Cuban Missile Crisis, we almost went to war with Russia when they tried to put missiles in Cuba, right next door to the US. We were understandably concerned.

    As I understand it, Ukraine has been pushing hard for NATO admittance, and if that was granted the NATO alliance would be right on Russia's border, with every right to load up military hardware right on Russia's doorstep. I can see how that would make Putin concerned. On his attack of Ukraine? I don't think it's justified, but OTOH if his thought process was that if he waited to do something until AFTER Ukraine got accepted provisionally in to NATO and tried to fight, he'd end up fighting all of NATO, including the US. That would be a sure loser for him, perhaps prompting his attack now before that situation came to pass.

    I do wonder if we could have avoided this war by having NATO promise not to add any of its military forces in to Ukraine if they were admitted, but that's water under the bridge now. I don't know enough about the war's details to know how many civilian targets Putin is targeting. I do know Russia isn't rich and doesn't have tons of excess military hardware, though, so I don't know why he'd go out of his way to seriously anger his opponent while leaving their military intact. What would the point be? To make the Ukrainians fight back more?

    Back to WWII, the 6 million lives are only the Jewish lives lost, and grossly understates the German extermination that included Poles, Roma, etc. I *never* claimed our behavior was similar to that of the axis powers. Their actions were evil, and ours were justified. That being said, being on the "right" side of a conflict doesn't excuse any behavior you do.

    Since you and I don't seem to have an understanding here, how about this example? The Muslim terrorists were clearly in the wrong on their attacks on the US. Do you think our actions with our prisoners in Abu Grhaib prisons were therefore OK because they were the bad guys and we were the good guys?
     
  10. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, yeah and the Japanese had an excuse for bombing Pearl Harbor too at the time as did Hitler for his aggressions. Violent invasions of other countries in the absence of direct provocation, i.e. they attack you first, puts that country in the wrong.

    Threatening, as in the Cuban missile crisis certainly put our government on high alert but we didn’t respond by attacking the Soviet Union or Cuba for that matter. Some of the USSR’s former possessions are already NATO members. Not one has attacked Russia. Concerns could have been addressed but I don’t believe for an instance Russia invaded Ukraine because they were afraid of anything.

    Maybe you don’t read what you write. You said:

    “BTW. considering the number of innocent civilian lives lost in Dresden and Hiroshima, *do you* consider the US (and British) rulers to be war criminals? If not, why not? The scope of the innocent lives they've killed is WAY beyond what Putin's soldiers are doing.”

    You actually wanted me to say the Allies were war criminals citing Dresden and Hiroshima because you then said “If not, why not?” Which sounds like you evidently think they were. We were attacked first before we entered the war. Then you excuse Putin by saying he hasn’t killed as many people. WTF?

    Then you try to walk it back in your subsequent post but curiously add…
    “That being said, being on the "right" side of a conflict doesn't excuse any behavior you do.”

    Who said it did but when you have to defend yourself and defeat the enemy as well, you have to fight. Soldiers will be killed. Ukraine soldiers and civilians are being killed. Russian civilians are not.
    Ukraine is not lobbing missiles into Russia.

    You mention the treatment of detainees from another war. It was not considered the right thing to do to those prisoners and eleven US soldiers were convicted of crimes as a result.
    https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bal-ghraib-story.html

    Are the Ukraines torturing captured Russian soldiers? Not that I’ve heard. They just want them to leave.
     
    #3930 purriwinkle, Mar 20, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2022
  11. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Your point earlier was that Putin had killed civilians, so he was a war criminal, right? We knowing killed a lot more civilians, so... wouldn't that make our leaders war criminals as well? If not then why is Putin? When we invaded Iraq there were civilian casualties as well, when Obama launched missiles (over a thousand, all told) into various middle eastern places, countries we weren't at war with at the time, some civilians died as well. No one is calling him a war criminal for this.

    You missed the point about Abu Grhaib. The whole world said we were in the wrong, and we convicted a few soldiers for their actions, but, did the world call President Bush a *war criminal*? No.

    The whole point is that the President of the United States called the President of another country a *war criminal*. That's very serious. I don't see the justification for it, and haven't heard you explain what that justification was either.

    Is it your belief that he's a war criminal for starting a war at all? Is anyone who starts a war a war criminal?
     
  12. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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  13. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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    Putin is not a war criminal for killing civilians. He is a war criminal for TARGETING civilians. Aside from WWII, the US has killed many civilians however not only were they not intended, we admitted and apologized for mistakes in targeting. Putin is lying about what targets are being hit and razing entire cities. We dropped nukes not to kill as many as possible but to end the war, which it did. We hit the country that dragged us into the war. Ukrainians were fighting Ukrainians. Russia issued separatists Visas then claimed they were just defending two separate states that he just declared into existence. Using your example of Cuba, that would be like us giving Cubans visas, declaring two regions of Cuba independent then bombing the sh!7 out of civilians. There is arguably a huge anti Communist segment of the population there. Probably a larger percentage than Ukrainian separatists.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  14. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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    I know. Why is he riding a bike and staying healthy when everyone knows playing golf is the appropriate way to contemplate world issues? Does Biden own the bike trail charging secret service tens of thousands to rent bikes to follow him on?


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  15. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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    Desantis reported that for the first time is a long time there are more registered Republicans in Florida than Democrats. That wouldn’t gave anything to do with them going door to door and tricking the elderly to “Update” their voting info and changing them to Republican would it. Now they cant vote in primaries until fixed.




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  16. Sharpie61

    Sharpie61 Well-Known Member

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  17. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that succinctly sums it up.

    Sometimes the fog of war creates tragedies. But what we are seeing time and time again in Ukraine is that these targets are being chosen. There was even one building that they wrote "children" on the grounds outside of it in Russian, and they still bombed it. The aerial photos show how it can be clearly seen too.
     
  18. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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  19. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    There are also videos being put out by the Russians showing the Ukranians putting tanks between apartment buildings in residential areas, and while I wouldn't trust one country's propaganda over another's, it does suggest the issue may not be as clear cut as it appears.

    It's also hard to trust OUR media after they lied about the Trump collusion/Steele dossier for so long, and then lied again about Hunter Biden's computer. When your media has already been shown to be more interested in pushing their narrative than in publishing the objective truth, why believe what they say? In over a month of fighting there are only three episodes I can recall where the Russians are said to have attacked civilian centers, that doesn't sound like it's happening on a daily basis or as a part of some plan to me.

    https://www.republicworld.com/world...e-using-apartments-to-attack-articleshow.html
     
  20. DeadZedHead

    DeadZedHead Well-Known Member

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    But you have no trouble believing conservative media who get caught far more often than “MS” media and continue to push the lie long after it has been clearly shown to be a lie.

    Im blown away by your defense of the Russians. They invaded a country, have bombed cities(not bases) on a near daily basis and killed civilians on a regular basis. How many hospitals do they have to bomb before you draw the line? They are TARGETING these buildings and they admit it. The Russians are driving tanks through the cities and looting businesses. Where are Ukrainians supposed to hide their tanks? You are literally faulting the Ukrainians for defending themselves against an invading army.


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