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2020 election

Discussion in 'Debaters' started by Morgotha, Feb 3, 2019.

  1. Jama

    Jama Well-Known Member

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    Oh I have heard and it makes me sick (Not really, but in terms of being dramatic, I'm violently vomiting, lol).

    The problem with his and his minion's arguments, is that they keep moving the goal posts based on where he lines up on the economic hierarchy.

    15 years ago, Bernie was talking trash about all wealthy people. Then it was the 1% that he was fighting against (which he's now a part of, btw), now it's just the billionaires he thinks are "bad".

    He thinks that he's an exception to his own weird rules because all he did was write a book that was well received by the public. Okay Bernie.... Well all Bill Gates did, was create cutting edge computer technology that was well-received by the public. Oh and Bill Gates also supports many left-leaning policies and has willingly donated about a million times more money to charity than you ever will, but he's the "evil billionaire" and you want him to give his "fair share" by order of mandate. Ugh!

    The most laughable aspect of all this is that Bernie would have never had the opportunity to accumulate his "small" fortune if we lived in a socialist country and he wasn't in a position of power.
     
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  2. Lindigo

    Lindigo Well-Known Member

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    Do Billionaires Get Social Security?
    Even the richest Americans can qualify for Social Security retirement benefits

    Matthew Frankel, CFP
    (TMFMathGuy)
    Jul 17, 2017 at 7:02AM

    The short answer is yes. Even though they don't need the extra income, billionaires can qualify for Social Security benefits when they reach age 62, and many of the richest Americans are currently collecting a monthly Social Security check. However, since Social Security benefits are capped, billionaires don't receive much more from the Social Security Administration than most middle-class Americans.

    Some billionaires might not qualify for the maximum, or any benefit at all
    One key point to be aware of is that Social Security retirement benefits are based on your earnedincome, such as wages from a job. Many of the wealthiest Americans get their income from passive business activities, or from dividend income on their investments, which is not counted for Social Security purposes.

    https://www.fool.com/retirement/2017/07/17/do-billionaires-get-social-security.aspx

    When I first started working for the federal government, retiring employees who had worked in jobs that were covered by Social Security could collect that SS retirement benefit and also collect a retirement benefit from the federal retirement system for their federal employment. The reason was that both are insurance programs that the employee pays into. If you paid into both, you could receive benefits for both. Otherwise, you would receive retirement benefits for only part of your working years.

    Nevertheless, when Social Security was having one of its dire spells, Congress decreed that in the future federal retirees could not receive benefits from both programs, even if they had paid into both and were qualified in both. This became the reality for the Executive Branch.

    I'm GUESSING that Congressmen exempted the Congressional Branch, because this is what rich people in power often do--save benefits for themselves and ban them from people who make dramatically less and have the greater need.

    Otherwise, I don't know how the Sanders could both be receiving Social Security benefits. I am guessing his wife is receiving the maximum benefit. Perhaps he is receiving a spouses' benefit on her account? Perhaps he is receiving a benefit from his own non-federal work. I don't know.

    Edit: tink says Bernie only has governmental employment. If that means all federal government, then all I can think of is the spouses benefit to bring the total to that level.
     
    #142 Lindigo, Apr 15, 2019 at 11:54 PM
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019 at 12:00 AM
  3. Lindigo

    Lindigo Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing hypocritical about being a socialist and rich at the same time. Not all rich people are greedy pigs. My father, for example, when he was quite rich, FUMED at the government for not taxing him more to provide benefits for people who had ordinary wages.

    For example, almost every time I took my Dad to the VA, he fussed because he got free care and he was able to pay for medical care.

    Dad: Why should I get free glasses?
    Me: Because a grateful nation gave you the benefits.
    Dad: It's not right.
    Me: Try these on.
    Dad: Oh, these look nice. I can buy them myself.
    Me: (to the guy) We'll order these. (to Dad) Now, where do you want to go for lunch?

    My opinion is that if you are eligible for something like VA benefits, you get VA benefits. Ditto Social Security. Just because Bernie has Social Security benefits now, doesn't mean that eligibility for benefits couldn't be changed under a different administration.

    You don't have to refuse a benefit out of principle. One can. Apparently you would. That's you. When I was at my poorest I qualified for some welfare benefits. I preferred to be hungry because I thought there were people who were even worse off. I look back at that young self, and think, jeez, you were hungry--you should have accepted the benefit.

    You never know what possesses people to accept or decline benefits they are entitled to. But if they are entitled, they are entitled to exercise that option.
     
    #143 Lindigo, Apr 15, 2019 at 11:56 PM
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019 at 12:25 AM
  4. tink

    tink Well-Known Member

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    People questioning Bernie's taxes:

    https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1117965417752829952.html


    I did actually notice the different font in some of the boxes, which is really weird, Not sure how that would actually happened, especially since it seems to be like a comic sans font? That is not something you are likely to see in any TurboTax or other tax software.
     
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  5. tink

    tink Well-Known Member

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    All true, but the problem Bernie has is that he rails against the evil rich who take more than they give, and who don't pay their fair share, and yet he is rich, he does everything he can to pay as little as possible, and then when questioned about it gets angry and says people can write a book too if they want to be a millionaire. He's a total hypocrite. If he was that concerned about redestributing wealth then really he should have started with his own wealth.
     
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  6. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    That shows your father is a good man, but he DID pay for those glasses by giving his time and risking his life in the Service for his country. He should take the glasses without a qualm. He earned them.
     
  7. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I don't care how much anyone makes. But he demagogues the issue. There's a difference between doing things to make the playing field fairer for everyone, over villainizing people and being a total hypocrite. The guy has tried to hide his wealth too. It's why he's waited years to release his taxes. He only did it now because he realized he couldn't continue on this way.
     
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  8. Lindigo

    Lindigo Well-Known Member

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    Oh, okay. I can see how you could reasonably take it that way. To me, everyone does what they can with taxes to pay as little as possible within the rules, so the solution is a tighter tax system, which, you're right, is most questionable with self-employment income.

    I don't know what you think he should do to prove he is sincere about changing government policies to achieve better wealth distribution with his own income. Give his income away? That's not what any Democratic Socialist I know does. That's what Scientologists and other brainwashed cult members do.

    Making changes in government policies is a different thing, and the sincerity of wanting a fairer system, of wanting to give tax relief to the lower 95 percent instead of giving even more tax advantages to the rich, for example, has nothing to do with one's income. Rich people can want a fairer system while enjoying the advantages of their successes in the current environment. That's not hypocrisy, that's idealism.
     
  9. tink

    tink Well-Known Member

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    I don't really care about his income.

    My issue is that he attacked Hillary RELENTLESSLY about her income. His whole shtick is about raging against the rich who don't pay their fair share. But he tried for the past several years to hide his income, and it's pretty clear those things he released are not actually his tax returns. Are they worksheets? Not clear. So he's still hiding.
     
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  10. HungryZombie

    HungryZombie Active Member

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    I just hope this opens a few peoples eyes. All politicians are crappy people and full of horse pooey. All of them.
     
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  11. Jama

    Jama Well-Known Member

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    Yeah.... this whole thing with Bernie, his taxes, his cover ups and his double standards STINKS to high heaven. Buckle up, cuz I'm going on a rant....

    The guy makes what? $179,000 a year as a US Senator AND he receives $44,000 per year in Social Security?!?!?

    I don't mind that he makes a lot of money. Technically.

    I don't mind that he is allowed to double-dip and receive not only a very large salary for a job that is virtually worthless. Technically

    I don't mind that he ALSO receives a higher than average SSI benefit (My grandmother receives about half of what he gets). Technically.

    But what I do mind, is that we have a man who's benefited greatly off of our economic system in a way that very few have managed to achieve... Almost to the point where it seems as if he's taking advantage of this system.

    It makes PERFECT SENSE now why Bernie thinks that our current system is corrupt and "evil".... Because he actively contributed in being a prime beneficiary of this "ugly side" of Capitalism and Democracy that we're all familiar with.

    Average Joe and Jane voters in Vermont voted for him and he won a Senate seat. He's since done absolutely nothing as a Senator except shoot his mouth off. Which has given him attention and notoriety. And he gets almost $200K a year for that!!!

    Then he used that influence to write a book and make money off of that book, while making 5 times an average person's salary as a Senator, WHILE receiving twice as much in SSI benefits as my poor grandma, who worked her fingers to the bone for 60+ years of her life!!!

    Yeah Bernie.... Our system is sooooo horrible. So bad, that you want to make sure that no one else can take advantage of it like you have. lol
     
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  12. Sharpie61

    Sharpie61 Well-Known Member

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    I think all politicians are crooked one way or another. But some are just better at hiding it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  13. Lindigo

    Lindigo Well-Known Member

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    Oh! Thanks for the clarification. Sorry I'm so slow.

    Hmm, maybe. I didn't make photocopies when I did my own taxes. I just kept the working copy and copied out a tidy one to send in. I was always happy they had two sheets of every form in the booklet, and sometimes I wished for three, because even the one I sent in would wind up having corrections. Sometimes I actually would go get a new booklet because neither of the first two tries would be presentable enough to suit me. I guess most people have switched over to the computer forms, so it's not generally an issue now.

    Anyway, it wouldn't be hiding if I showed my own copy, because of course I wanted an accurate copy for myself, however messy.

    I wonder if he will ask for IRS photocopies if lots of people react the same way it hits you, doubting whether they actually are faithful copies of his submitted tax returns.
     
  14. Lindigo

    Lindigo Well-Known Member

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    No, that's not true. Of course, I can't be 100 percent sure Bernie is as honorable as I believe him to be, but there definitely are honorable people who aspire to political office.
     
  15. Lindigo

    Lindigo Well-Known Member

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    According to PolitiFact , a non-partisan Pulitzer Prize Winning fact-checking site, the vast majority of candidates who have run for president or vice president in the last thirty-five years have indeed released their tax returns. Of the thirty-four candidates who ran during that time period, only seven—Jerry Brown, Pat Buchanan, Mike Huckabee, Steve Forbes, Rudy Giuliani, Richard Lugar, and Ralph Nader—have refused to release their tax returns altogether. Most released their records in the late spring.

    http://mentalfloss.com/article/2975...ease-their-tax-returns-also-photo-mitt-romney

    I was just curious if it is routine to release tax records during primaries, so I looked it up. This story is from January 2012, so the stat would be a little different now, but most people release.
     
  16. HungryZombie

    HungryZombie Active Member

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    Being honorable doesn't preclude someone from being full of shit.
     
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  17. Lindigo

    Lindigo Well-Known Member

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    It does to me. :confused:
     
  18. Jama

    Jama Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Sure, Bernie is honorable in the sense that he's not a slimy, cheating, shady-dealing scumbag like Trump in terms of how he's lived his life and how he treats other people. But in terms of his prinicples, philosophies, his platform, and what he stands for.... he is completely full of shit, and I would argue that this does equal a lack of honor on some level.
     
  19. tink

    tink Well-Known Member

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    This is a GREAT site:

    https://www.taxnotes.com/presidential-tax-returns

    Now open Kamala Harris's 2018 tax return, that's what people are expecting to see. Not just some worksheet pages, the whole return. Even down to the listing of which charities she gave money to. And it's why people look at what Bernie released and think WTF is this?
     
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  20. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    That's even more infuriating. He didn't even provide his signed returns like everyone else. It's just some worksheet crap. No wonder it took them so long to "put it together."

    This guy needs to be annihilated quickly in the debates. The 2020 election is too crucial and we need the time and focus on the best candidate not another election cycle where narcissist Bernie rants and raves, degrades all the candidates and drags the Dem Party down with him. Enough.
     
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