Wait till he shows up as a walker outside the walls of Alexandria!

 

Yea this entire episode really highlighted Eugene stepping up to the plate and "pulling his weight", it was really great writing, in my opinion. The juxtaposition between the guys who pretend to be brave but are really cowards... and the guy who admits to being a coward who is actually courageous at heart.

I'm just really happy Eugene finally did something to earn his spot with Rick's group. I wanted either him or Gabriel to "step up"... and this episode surly showed the true colors of those two characters.

 

Ugh me too. I actually yelled at the screen "shoot him god dammit!" when they started eating him alive... :-( I really thought Glenn would.

Two people eaten alive in one episode, ughhh. Poor Glenn he must really be feeling it hard. :-(

 

Cant wait to see the events being explained to Deanna and what story Nicholas will put forward...

 

I was thinking (yelling) the same thing, but then when they're trapped in the revolving door a few minutes later, Glenn makes a point of telling Nick that he (Nick) has the ammo so that's why Glenn and Noah can't shoot any of the walkers. And even if Glenn had one last shot available, if he'd stopped long enough to fire at Aiden (as Noah's trying to pull Glenn away from the oncoming swarm), I don't think Glenn and Noah would've made it out. I got the feeling it was timed very close like that to explain why Glenn didn't even hestitate to try a mercy shot.

 

Extremely well said. Thank you.

 

Since these characters hallucinate a lot (especially when they are bleeding), maybe Aiden was confused and just rambling to "ghosts" of past friends.

 

He's god damn right thoe.

 

I couldn't agree more. To me, what Tobin did was indicative of the mark of a real man. He didn't allow pride, or ego to blind him from seeing the way things are; and from seeing that he is ill-equipped and not capable of leading and protecting the construciton crew the way it needs to be led. Pride cometh before the fall; and that's exactly how it would have played out had Tobin not had the modesty, humbleness, and strength of character to concede his position to the better man. There's no telling how many people would have died had Tobin not bowed out to Abe.

Which brings me to my next point; the real "meat" of this scene was cut out, and left to ambiguous personal interpretation; as compared to the comic. So, I can see how [MENTION=6306]Stealth[/MENTION] found the TV scene slightly laughable. Because; they portrayed Tobin in this moment as cowardly, defeated; with the look of a recently beaten puppy in his eyes. In the comic, it was much different ; in the sense that while Tobin was admitting and conceding the same things; the way he was portrayed made him appear as a genuinely good man with no ego or illusions who was just a little out of his depth but was trying his best; rather than a sniveling coward.

Another little detail they left out; that gives Tobin that "strength of character" I mentioned above-- as well as explains for the reader that this is not a bad, or cowardly man; but rather a man who tried his best with the capabilities he had--is the guilt and shame he carries.

In the comic; witnessing Abraham rise to occasion, saving Holly, eliminating the zombie threat, and then taking charge of the crew and subsequently leading them in a manner which resulted in an exponential increase in productivity and efficiency; gave Tobin a sort of "awakening". Before then; he believed he was leading the crew well; being fare, keeping his team as safe as possible while also trying to manage the crew to be as productive and efficient as possible; and although they would lose people, he believed he made the right choices, and did the best thing for the community as a whole. But, once he saw Abraham; he realized that, even though he was doing the best he knew how--it just wasn't enough. He realized he was fit for this job; he wasn't fit to lead and protect; plain and simple it made him see he just wasn't the best man for the job. And in that moment; he was overwhelmed by this dormant grief, guilt, and soul-shaking shame that he'd been carrying all this time but didn't know it.

It's like he says in the comic panels below--"How many others died because I'm a coward?"--"My crew doesn't need me. They need someone who's not going to shit himself unless he's shoulder-to-shoulder with his buddies shooting wildly".

I always felt like that was very important to this scene; and can't believe they left it out. Tobin's epiphany of the unnecessary lose of lives he caused, and accepting the guilt and shame of that was what made me applaud him.

Tobin then continues to tell Gregory how he feels about Rick's group as a whole. How these people are "amazing"; and how everyday watching them operate makes him realize more and more how unprepared, ill-equipped, and generally incapable the ASZ residents were. He makes several similar comments about different members of the group and the amazing things they've done, and the life-changing methods they've already implemented during their short stay at the safe one. Tobin also begins to allude through some of his comments that not only is Rick's group amazingly capable; but he begins to realize and insinuate to the ASZ leader that the ASZ "way" of doing things couldn't be more wrong. He says in so many words that that way Rick and his people live, survive, and thrive is the way things should be done; and that they hadn't even considered any of these things at ASZ.

I feel Deanna's little tiff about Rick's people taking over; and their swift and authoritative assimilation and integration into the community is starting to become an "unsettling pattern"; was a nod to the latter half of Tobin and Douglas's comic conversation. Tobin makes it apparent that Rick and his group are the salt of the earth; they're the type of people who need to be in charge of a place like this--and the ASZ residents are nothing more than the toiling laborers that should populate the safe zone, doing chores and being protected and led by those most worthy. This obviously angers the ASZ leader; as he refuses, and is too proud to acknowledge the superiority of Rick's group. It becomes apparent then that the leader is still clinging to a way of life, and rules that just don't apply anymore; as the leader truly believes that a politician is still the best suited and most qualified for leadership of a community. And that stubborn blindness can be more dangerous to the the community than walkers breaching the walls.

 

Thanks for the extra information and the comics excerpts. That was nice to see.

 

Not as hard as Aidan and Noah.

 

Aside from Aaron, the people in Alexandria are being portrayed as weaker versions of their comic counterparts so far. They are fine leaving their people to die in order to save themselves. That's why I didn't see Tobin's move as strength.

 

Oh, I completely agree. That's why I pointed out that I completely understand how you found some humor in Tobin's forfeiture of his position.

You couldn't be more right; in the comic the ASZ residents were naive, unprepared, and ill-equipped to deal with the threats and reality of the world outside their walls. But, with that being said; they just needed a wake-up-call/reality-check. Which was exactly what they got when Rick arrived.

But in the show; they're making them out to be "too far gone", except on the opposite end of the spectrum; if you get what I mean. Basically; they're portraying them as so weak, so incapable, inept, and generally worthless that it's almost unbelievable that they're still alive. In the comic; once they got their Rick-Grimes-Reality-Check they began to change; certain residents became stronger, altered their methods, changed their ways, they openly wanted to learn from Rick and his group and grow to become more like them, and many of them did. This is the only reason why they've accomplished all they have in the recent comics. Rick and his dozen people couldn't do it alone; they NEEDED the ASZ residents. But these television counterparts have been made so weak and worthless that it seems as if no amount of encouragement and training can fix them. Their cowardly ways, and selfish methods seem to be too deeply ingrained for change.

The best example of this is Nicholas. In the comic he was a pain in the ass, problematic assh*le who was frequently at odds with Rick. But, he wound up growing into a trusted friend and adviser of Rick's, a pivotal and respected community leader, a loyalist, a strong and courageous soldier, and a great husband and father. But, the way they've already portrayed him on the show makes him appear that his cowardice runs deep and no amount of anything can turn him around. This seems to be the case with all of the ASZ residents.

I definitely can't see TV Nicholas ever running into a heated battle with the Saviors, risking life and limb, so rescue an injured Rick and carry him all the way back inside the house, completely unarmed and vulnerable the entire time. And then taking a mucked-up knife in the back so Rick can live; there's no way TV Nicholas is capable of such valiance.

 

I'm not a comic reader, but I would hope that the Alexandrians will put their crap together. Right now I would say the only two that are not redeemable are Gabriel and Pete. On the latter, he has a kid who wants a gun, presumably to protect his mom from his dad.

 

With the people in Alexandria so weak it makes me wonder if they are going to take another route on the TV side and have Rick and Co just take over the community. There are a few catalysts that could lead them to that point too. Things could blow up over how to handle Pete along with Abraham and Glenn both mentioning how they leave their people to die in critical moments. Then if Deanna starts treating them differently after Aiden's death and Gabriels comments, it could lead to a perfect storm of events.

 

I was ready to give Aiden a chance once he started showing signs of realizing that Glenn & co actually know what they are talking about...but alas.

I'll admit that my first reaction was "Oh god Glenn! you could have at least mercy killed him!" but I think in retrospect, he had run out of ammo. I could barely watch Aiden's and Noah's deaths, I felt sick and it took me a while to stop shaking. I know that probably sounds silly to some of you but its the truth.

Nick will get his, don't you guys worry. Even if he pulls out some bullshit story and Deanna believes him, once Glenn tells Rick's group what happened to Noah and who was responsible...Nick's life will NOT be worth living.

 

I had to rewind it four times before finally turning on the closed captions because I could not make out what he was saying. This is what came up:

"It was us. The others before... They didn't panic, we did. It was us."

 

I saw this episode a lot later because business obligations kept me away. When I did fially get to see it, I had somewhat different take on the situation than some of the comments above.

First was, why would Glenn take the newbies -- Eugene, Noah, and Tara - into a dangerous situation where he is also trying to train and rehab Aiden and Nicholas? The whole thing would have gone down a lot differently if it were attacked by some combination of Glenn with Sasha, Michonne, Maggie, Abraham, Rosita, Carol and/or Darryl. They could have done it wearing bloody walker clothes camouflage; they could have banged on the fences and attracted the outside front yard walkers to the fence and killed them so that they would have an escape route. They could have had somebody other than inexperienced Aiden (who was trying to learn) take the deep front lead -- somebody who would knew how to kill a walker wearing headgear other than to keep shooting until you hit something explosive.

I like Glenn and I liked his effort. But Glenn's effort to be big shot was almost as misguided as Aiden's know-it-alledness. Glenn did not bring the experienced crew he needed for the job they were tackling. As a result, Aiden panicked and died; Nicholas panicked and Noah died; Tara was severely injured. They were lucky it wasn't worse. The whole endeavor was a FAIL as they still didn't get the solar panels or solar panel chips they needed.

So to me -- it was a really, really interesting episode because Glenn was right-- Aiden & Nicholas didn't know what they were doing. But Glenn wasn't as experienced and capable a leader as he thought he was, or he would have chosen a more experienced crew and a lot better strategy for the job at hand.

 

Glenn wasn't in charge, Aiden still picked the team.