My thoughts exactly. The so called “fairy tale” is NORMAL. Two adults coming together, developing a relationship...creating a family is what people do. Are we to believe it was all a lie on Carol’s part? I’m no psychologist but it almost feels like Carol is trying to punish herself for finding happiness. All those years with Ed and then subsequent events where she lost those she loved must have made her feel like she doesn’t deserve to have love and the types of typical relationships others have. I feel bad for her.

* and I would have preferred neither Zeke or Henry’s head on a pike.

 

I don't t think he was jealous of Daryl and Carol, he just blames Daryl for Henry's death and thinks his presence is a constant reminder. For him AND Carol even though that's not true for Carol.

 

That's possible, though I've interpreted this blame thing differently. I didn't think it was about Henry at all.
I thought Carol meant that Ezekiel was reluctant to blame Carol for the growing distance between them, and it was easier for him to blame Daryl. I thought he wanted Daryl out of the picture, so Carol would be forced to turn to Ezekiel to work out their problems and get through this rough patch, instead of Carol confinding in Daryl all the time.

 

that's possible too.... hmmmm.....

 

Makes sense since Daryl had nothing to do with Henry’s death. If anything, he was responsible for saving Henry since Alpha was going to kill him when she had him in her camp.

I can see Zeke wanting Carol to come to him for comfort and healing rather than rely on Daryl. Good insight on your part.

 

I think Carol feels like she's losing herself, not just because of losing Henry, but because she feels pushed into yet another deathly conflict she knows she can't avoid. She feels her rage building, she knows it's only a matter of time and she will have to go and kill people again, for what they did and what they could still do to others. She hates this and knows it coming. Just the thought of these evil people out there trying to do them more harm is torturing her. This here we go again must be the most dreadful thing ever.

 

I never thought it bothered Carol over much to kill people who threatened the ones she cared about. In fact, that’s what she does and I predict will do again with the Whisperers.

Perhaps there is some sort of internal conflict however. She was in a funk when she left Tobin and ended up living in that little house outside the Kingdom. Maybe whatever she was feeling then is starting to creep up on her again and she recognizes it.

 

Well, that's what her crisis was about back then. Having to kill people to protect her loved ones and herself. For being forced to kill, because the world is just so hostile that it keeps spewing these people at her who want to harm her and those dear to her. She has never had any problem actually stepping up to do it, hence she's still with us, but she resented having to do it. She felt it was chipping away at her very soul having to kill people. Morgan was trying to help her but in fact he's made it worse for her (before it got better.) She got so depressed that she thought she needed to remove herself from everyone, to save herself, because as long as she was near them, she would have to constantly kill for them. Of course after she found out about all the losses in Team Family that happened whilst she was gone, she realised she couldn't keep away any longer, and she would just have to reconcile with this "having to kill to stay alive and keep loved ones alive", because there's no real alternative for her. And it seemed like she did. She was in such a good place mentally over these past 8 years. And now she suffered her first big loss since Rick. She lost her adopted child, and she feels forced on the road of having to kill in masses again, I think that's what's triggered her. At least she doesn't want to separate again from TF (or not yet anyway). Hopefully, this is only a wobble, not a relapse. An amazing woman. She's been through so much shit. And she just pulls through everything life throws at her.

 

You are a great addition to our little community. Great insight.

 

Very kind, thank you. I've been enjoying reading you guys for so long, it's been silly not start actually talking to you sooner. Great timing, at the season finale! But there is always Season 10. I might even make an avatar by then, lol.

 

Stick around. We are silly and play games during the off season.

 

Carol has always been one of my favorites. I was sad to see her fairytale with the King end. Ezekiel is so compassionate and it was great to see Carol experience being treated like the queen she really is. I felt bad for him because I think he really does love her. I’m hoping they can reconnect down the line but we shall see

 

I definitely agree she is punishing herself. Sometimes it can be easier to cope if the person simply rationalizes that they deserved their abuse/trauma.

That makes happiness more difficult to accept and when a new trauma comes along (in this case Henry's death), a person could resort back to their original coping strategy of believing it was deserved and I can see the person regress back to rejecting other happiness in their life as well. Kind of like what cognitive dissonance is maybe? Maybe Carol is thinking "Of course I wasn't going to be happy as a mother and so I guess I'm doomed to fail as a wife too." Blaming herself, punishing herself, and/or believing she is undeserving to live a happy life as a mother doesn't fit with the action of being a happy partner with Ezekiel, so she's choosing to be cynical across the board and thus wants to leave Ezekiel before that ends traumatically too.

If that's the case, then maybe she doesn't actually inherently believe what she said to Ezekiel about the fairy tale ending and trying to give back his ring. Maybe she's trying to protect Ezekiel by pushing him away and saying something hurtful like that to him? But I'm not sure if that is a part of it really. Hard to tell with Carol.

I do believe she has been triggered and her more consistent coping mechanism is to be alone, but this time she's actually choosing to stay with Team Family. I find that to be an interesting departure from all the times she desperately sought to be alone. Maybe Team Family represents something more stable and safe than it did 8 years ago. Idk.

 

@GrungeMan

That's a very thoughtful exploration of what has just happened in Carol's head, to make this decision. I like how you're exploring rather than arriving to conclusions about it. It is so very complicated, and I think there are elements of all of this in her thinking: a strong sense of who-was-I-kidding-I-could have-this at the heart of it. I'm not sure how much of it is selfpunishment, I feel it's more blame than punishment. She must be thinking: "I can never hold onto the children in my care." Does she blame the world or herself for that? Probably both, but I think she's definitely blaming herself for *believing* that she could have this in this world without it being ripped away from her sooner or later.

You said:

"she's choosing to be cynical across the board and thus wants to leave Ezekiel before that ends traumatically too"

I think that is the closest way to describe it. She is choosing to walk away from this tie, because she has chosen to be in it the first place. And why she wouldn't just go off on her own again but stick with TF? You are saying TF represent something "more stable and safe than 8 years ago". So true. They are that now. They're strong together with an unbreakable bond. For her to belong with them, most importantly with Daryl, is not a choice, because he was there for her right from the start, seeing her through from the fall of the old world. He knew her "from before", in the sense he knew her husband, her daughter, and who she was before. Daryl knows and loves her like no one else. Everything she ever was and what she is now. She always remained a bit of an enigma for Ezekiel, who put her constantly an a pedestal, which can be very tiresome, especially when you feel shit about yourself. Daryl gets her full range, and she can be completely herself around him. So of course she navigates towards him right now.

I still think though that the breakup came out of the blue though. They've never showed any sign of the Carol/Ezekiel relationship having any problems, and suddenly it crumbled. Usually, there are chips in the armour first.

Also, it felt weird, because as @HonestAbe (I love all your usernames btw) pointed out, Ezekiel loves her so much and he's always been so compassionate. For him to want to push Daryl away, the very person who is a comfort to Carol right now, that just seemed somewhat out of character. But maybe not. We saw Ezekiel break down before, and that wasn't pretty either.

 

When you look at all the kids lost under Carol's care, Henry is probably the most precious to her and only second to her own flesh and blood Sophia. But then, this Carol is not the same Carol of 6+ years ago. She has grown much stronger.

I think her breaking off is her way of preparing herself psychologically for the war with the Whisperers as she sensed the war is inevitable. Her upcoming choice of physically moving away from Ezekiel (her going back to ASZ instead of staying at Hilltop) and the symbolically relationship ending (her giving back the ring to Ezekiel) is her way of moving from 'fairy tale mode' to 'reality battle mode'. It is not that she suddenly does not love Ezekiel anymore. She still cares about him but she knows she cannot fight a war while being in a 'fairy tale mode'.

 

I agree, that's definitely part of it. But she has fought the Saviours by Ezekiel's side, (I know they weren't officially a couple at that stage yet, but they were well on the way), so there is more to it than just switching to being a warrior princess again from fairy tale queen. But certainly she wants the freedom to operate as she sees fit without a protective husband weighing in on her decisions.

 

Perhaps another reason is her relationship with Lydia. She seems to accept Lydia gradually more, especially after seeing Lydia to offer herself to be bitten by a walker and her subsequent asking Carol to kill her. Carol might realize that Ezekiel is not as easily forgiving Lydia as herself. (Ezekiel might be kind and compassionate in general but, when it comes to the death of Henry, he might not be so.) So, as she seems to decide to take in Lydia under her arms (to a certain degree), she does not want Ezekiel to get in the way and gets annoyed.

 

Interesting to consider Lydia's part in this, isn't it? I wonder when Carol would have actually decided to go to Alexandria.

When they set out on the road, she could barely look at Lydia. By the time they got to Hilltop, she could see Lydia how Daryl encouraged her to look at her: for who she was. A sweet and lost little girl, who needs love and deserves safety.

So instead of welcoming not having to look at her everyday, she actively chooses to live in the same community as her, and through her strong connection with Daryl (who has practically adopted Lydia), she is also signing up to help Daryl look out for Lydia.

Actually, now I realise, Ezekiel didn't have to say any of that bs to Daryl, as the plan was for him and Carol to stay at Hilltop and Daryl to move on to Alexandria. He was never going to stick around at Hilltop anyway because of Lydia. So it was a somewhat pointless confrontation, wasn't it?

 

The breakup us definitely a sudden event in my opinion.

At the fair she signed "Queen Carol" on the paper without hesitation.

Henry's death and possibly all the other piked heads triggered it.

May be Kingdom's fall and the breakup is a set up for the King's head soon.

 

A part of me thinks that Carol is somewhat returning to her roots.. she loves Ezekiel even though she left him but right now she needs to be at Alexandria with her original group (or what’s left of it).. I think Daryl is her rock and even though they aren’t romantically involved, being around him makes her feel whole (even more than Ezekiel).. she’s with her original people both coping and preparing for what’s to come with the Whisperers.. I think it might possibly be because these people were there to have her back when she really found herself and became strong..