Definitely one of the best episodes in TWD history

 

Wow didn't even realize that.

 

He also said "kill them all" this episode, a Gov signature

 

I also noticed this- perhaps a nod to how there's been a bit of a role reversal, with Ricks crew becoming the aggressors as opposed to the defenders.

 

I've got to watch this episode again! So many things I missed.

 

Rick and his group are definitely crossing that line in this episode. Shot from a different perspective, it would be easily to see Rick's crew as being the bad guys here. But again, what makes people bad guys vs good guys? Everyone is just trying to survive in this dog eat dog world. Do we know for sure that these Saviors couldn't have been talked to and some agreement couldn't have been reached? Sure, you can say that they are taking from the Hilltop and wanted to kill Gregory, but who doesn't?

 

I think the pictures of smashed in faces hangin up on the wall in those guys room pretty much cements that these aren't the kind of people you'd wanna try to "talk to"

 

They're close to crossing the line, but not quite. Negan's group were the first aggressors (the bikers). Then they had the word of the Hilltop people as to how the Saviors operated. The Governor would pre-emptively kill other groups if he thought they had the potential to pose a threat (as he did with the national guard group).

 

I think the question would be is that how the Gov started out? We have to kill them before they kill us? Same thing with Terminus. How far do you go to protect yourself. Also, Rick clearly stated that they were going to get food and supplies for this. They went in as paid assassins and they offered to go on this mission. The Hilltop group only agreed to the terms and ASZ is taking half of their supplies in return in a "take or leave it" situation. At first I was like "yeah of course go get them" and then I thought what if they walk in and there are children there. Are they going to kill everyone? That's what the Gov would do he didn't care who's blood he spilled in order to protect what he had. I know the Saviors are going to be the "bad guys" but that's because of what I read on the forums but from an outside perspective how different are they from Rick's people at this point?

 

Yeah, I definitely think so. Plus, Rick's been known to pick up things from his enemies ("Can't go back, Bob", etc). They also cut to Tara after he said it, and you could tell she recognized where she had heard that before, which is why she brought it up later to Father Gabriel.

 

Comparing Rick's group to the Governor's men or Negan's is like comparing apples and oranges. They all kill people but that's where the similarity ends. You have to look to motivation behind why they kill.

The Govenor and Neegan kill pre-emptively to maintain their personal power, to take other people's possessions and because they get a sick pleasure out of it. If Rick and the group kill pre-emptively it's to protect, liberate and rid an already messed up world from some seriously sick people.

He's not perfect but to most of the basically good people he's come into contact with Rick has been tantamount to a knight in shinning armor.

 

Yeah totally, I noticed that too. I felt bad for Tara because you could tell she just felt sick in that moment, and knew things were doomed. It's an Omen.

 

Yeah, I agree with you and I wasn't really comparing the two groups, just stating that this is one of the first times Ricks group has acted offensively. Of course they are different, Negan's group is a bunch of heinous sickos, and Rick's motives are obviously completely different. But still, there was a time Rick wouldn't have imagined himself sneaking in and assassinating an entire camp while they sleep. The show often calls these types of instances to mind to make us consider how far we'd go in the name of survival.

 

I wasn't reacting to your post in particular but to the whole tone of the thread which suggests that there's some sort of role reversal or that Rick is crossing or almost crossing some sort of moral line. Bull shit.

I will agree it's clever writing to put some of the formerly used phrases mouthed by villains into Rick's mouth but despite surviving some harrowing experiences and losing loved ones he's basically managed to keep his head on straight. I call it adapting, and Lord knows it's not pretty but I believe his moral compass is still pointing true north.

 

ahh I see, well we are basically arguing the same point then

 

In very simple terms:

- Negan/Termites/Governor kill indiscriminately to take possessions or maintain power and are total dictatorial types who don't take counsel from anyone.

- Rick takes counsel from others, respects his group as family and his group kills only bad people and threats. Defensively or offensively it's still for the same purpose, to protect themselves and others.

The show does well to play with the idea's of morality and these discussions are great, but if Rick's group was truly crossing the line into Governor territory they'd have simply taken what they wanted from HillTop and subjugated them/slaughtered them. They wouldn't have brokered a deal to go put themselves at risk to go take out the oppressive and violent psycho's that are oppressing the harmless HillTop people.

Most of us see the differences, some don't. The moment Rick's group goes and slaughters a group of "non-hostiles" to take supplies then I will agree they have crossed into the bad people threshold.

Being that the Saviors are in the area and are armed and hostile, facing them is not and "if", but a "when" and they had enough evidence to clear the Saviors as "bad guys" that needed to be cleared from the area from Daryl/Sasha/Abe and the unarmed, non-threatening farmer HillTop community. The guy coming in and stabbing Gregory out of fear of Negan/Saviors was an extra cherry on the top.

There's a debate on going that the plan could have used much better recon and that they shouldn't have assumed that this was the main base of operation for the Saviors(I agree), but I don't see what other option they had other than to pre-emptively try to take them out given the knowledge they had and given that they want to stay in ASZ, which will be vulnerable to the Saviors.

 

I'm a Rick sympathizer so you won't ever see me saying he's crossed the line, but I do find the parallels between his behavior as he adapts to the new world and his former enemies fascinating. It's just good storytelling. His motives are still pure though - he does what he has to do to keep his extended family alive.

 

perhaps they are made to seem like the aggressors based on how the scenes were shot and the fact that we have been with Rick's group since day 1 and know them to be the heroes, but truth is that we haven't seen a Savior kill anyone yet. the only thing they have done is ask for people's things. maybe the threats they made were empty threats? i would still not take anyone's word from the Hilltop at this point yet if I was one of Rick's group... it would take more time for sure

 

look - dont get me wrong here, i agree with everyone that says that Rick's group are the good guys and the others are the bad ones... but i like playing Devil's advocate here

i feel like everyone is forgetting that other people have backstories as well. we have seen all of Rick's and have a good understanding of why he makes these decisions and that helps us to paint him as the good guy. We do get a glimpse of some of the other groups prior lives and we can tell that they were once good people as well.

The governor had a family and obviously still cared for his daughter - even after she turned. In fact, her death is what set him over the edge and made him lose it in my opinion. Yes, they killed the military platoon that they found - but perhaps they had a bad run in with them previously. Just look at how the military is portrayed in Fear the Walking Dead. Maybe he heard of other military platoons wiping out citizens as they were instructed to do. I wouldn't blame him for taking them down if that was the case.

As for the termites - they started off trying to take in people and give them a shelter and food, but when those biker guys took the joint over it caused them to snap and change to their cannibalistic state. They did try to give Rick and Co a chance to join them before realizing it wouldn't work out.

Overall, what I'm trying to say is that yes, the other groups of people we see are bad guys when we currently meet them. I do not think that they are inherently bad people though, just a product of their situation and the choices they have made in this crazy world. Only time will tell if Rick is indeed trending down the same path. Would we feel differently if we didn't know all of his backstory and just watched this past episode by itself? I think so. It definitely painted our heroes in a not so flattering light.