We haven't seen them kill anyone yet, but we have the lead biker telling Abe & Sasha that he was going to execute them. He also said that their normal routine was just to kill one person from a group right away just to make things easier. Then we can toss what Jesus and the Hilltoppers have said about the Saviors (and the fact that some of them came back from a run which sort of verifies that they owe Negan food, as well as one of their own stabbing their leader and no one doubting that the guy was being held hostage). Granted, we hadn't seen an in-person kill at that point, but it's more than enough justification (for me) for Rick's decision at this point.

 

you're right - but we are more going on word of mouth and what we think would have happened than actual proof here. Perhaps the lead biker was just telling them he was going to execute them as a scare tactic to get them to give up information. As far as the Hilltop goes, its a new community and we have no idea how they operate. All we know is that they are lead by a complete douchebag. If I ran into him, I'd bully him and take all of his food too - the guy's a grade A arsehole.

 

the thing that bothers me the most is that Rick is basically acting upon the premise that you are guilty by association. You can say that there are some of the Saviors who are obviously baddies (whoever killed the kid at the hilltop, the guards at the outpost seemed like jerks, etc), but who is to say that they are all bad? What if there was a Tara situation where they found themselves on the wrong side when it was too late? Let's face it, during the ZA you have a whole mixing of people from various backgrounds, families, groups, beliefs, etc. coming together. It's not like Negan's men were all friends before this and had these same beliefs and principles throughout their whole lives. I would say there is a more than a good chance that many of his men decided to join his cause because they really didn't have any alternative. It's basically join a group for protection or die - like being in prison. We even see Dwight and the two girls trying to defect from Negan in an earlier episode - so you know there is already some dissension there. I'm just thinking that maybe there could have been a way to capture all these guys and give them a choice to fight back and die, or join the Alexandria (good guy) cause.

 

Rick's group got into the Savior's compound using a severed head. Maybe there are some "good" guys inside, but I wouldn't risk it.

Rick's willingness to kill some of the Grady cops is much more troublesome to me.

 

as far as the show goes, sure - it's easy to say don't risk it and just wipe them all out to be safe. but what if it was real life? do you have the stones enough to kill real people because you don't want to risk it? i dont think i would. maybe its because im not living in their world, but i would've tried to devise a way to give them a chance to speak before murdering them in their sleep.

and yes, his willingness to take down the Grady cops was certainly a bit troublesome. he himself was a cop and knew what wearing that badge should represent. yes, they had two of his family - but i dont think he had much reason to believe that the cops he killed were bad people. kind of a caught up with the wrong crowd thing.

 

So if Rick's daughter dies, he suddenly becomes a rapist or "snaps" from non-sexual predator to becoming one overnight? Yeah, not a fu**ing chance, pal. This Gov comparison sh*t is totally overlooking his pathological narcissism, something that starts in early life.

The ZA just allowed his tyrannical psychopathy to reach new heights of destruction and control. No excuse like his daughter being killed or "losing it" changes the fact that he was a two-faced "Jim Jones type" - just like Michonne said - who used manipulation, charisma, lies, intimidation and meaningless slaughters to gain more power.

In fact, all of the above was happening before Penny got Michowned. Next: Rick committing massacre on his own, entire team/family, because his ego has been crushed? Never. The Governor never cared about anybody, perhaps not even Penny, other than maybe as his possession. After-all, his god-complex is what got people to follow him, never his "good" character, because it was never there at all.

Lastly, to set the record real fu**ing straight, the Governor did NOT just attack when he merely perceived a threat. He attacked for fun when there was NO threat at all... such as his own people. Or, say, when he laughed while firing his weapon at the air at the prison. Or walking through the Woodbury chaos with a smile on his face. The man was designed to rule the evil empire of the ZA world; Rick's actions, no matter how far they've gone, have never been for pleasure, but rather from genuine concern for those he actually loves and wants to protect. He's a hardened survivalist but one with a soul. The governor just used words like "protect my people", "keep them safe" as rhetoric, the same kind to get his followers behind him, not because they meant a damn thing.

 

I believe we're still missing some context here guys for these comparisons and no insult, I enjoy the discussion -

Precisely, you're thinking about your position as it relates to the civilized reality we live in. By this point and all of their experiences, they don't take absurd risks like trying to give a civil chance to what they know are mostly murderous bandits.

You can cite a lack of evidence and say we haven't seen a Savior kill yet, but the evidence has been laid out in front of us. The evidence is irrefutable that they are as described by Daryl, Sasha and Abe and HillTop - I will elaborate below.

The evidence is against the Saviors:

- Daryl, our trusted and honest group companion has 3 negative run ins with them, all of which could have been fatal and he witnessed the fear they inspired, their sick ass personalities and their brutality.

- Hill Top, a group of docile non-hostile people(run by a d-bag is irrelevant, they are not hostile, nor a threat)are horrified of them and we witnessed a Hill Top member ready to murder Gregory out of fear of the Saviors, who are pressing them for more and more resources on pain of death.

- The Saviors accepted a severed head and toyed with it like it was a ventriloquist dummy as payment to return a hostage.

- One Savior had a bunch of bashed in skulls as pictures above his bed. Sick ****s.

If there's a gray character or a Tara in there, it's unfortunate but it's not worth the risk. Your projected idea of trying to capture a few in a softer plan would see Rick's group killed in a fire fight. That is tactically insane to suggest, likewise non of the Saviors even attempted to surrender. Even if they did, offering to take them in would not necessarily go to plan and didn't do so for Daryl. You'd be taking in members of another opposing hostile group who you know nothing about, know nothing of their intentions and have no way to vet them.

Look at the damage bringing in outsider Morgan wrought on them, now imagine bringing in 5-10 hostiles from an opposing group that has a menacing reputation. That could very well be the internal destruction that ends your group and communities existence in one way or another.

And for the record Daryl would be within his reasonable right to execute Dwight upon meeting him again, considering how Dwight robbed him and backstabbed him after Daryl helped him. Although this is unlikely to happen.

I personally would put a cap in Dwight's dome in that scenario.

I disagree. They attempted to do it non-violent, which in turn put themselves more at risk than the method of going in the building with stealth and quietly killing all armed threats. I understand that the Cops had no knowledge if Rick was lying in his word to not kill them if the deal went smoothly, but Rick and co. offered it up and were not lying from their end. It's just one of those situations.

The Grady cop he shot that was on the run was capable of blowing their cover and turning the entire thing upside down. The guy was very stupid to try to escape like that and Rick trailed him in the car and gave him several warnings to stop, to no avail.

Keeping in mind that Rick and co. know as little about the intentions of the Grady Cops other than bad things they've heard from Noah, I think the entire situation was handled morally sound.

Dawn Lerner wouldn't have been killed had Beth not idiotically stabbed her, which that catastrophic **** up is on Beth and only one moron that decided to try to run against armed assailants would have been the sole casualty had she not done that.

Compared to what could have been a massive body count.

I fail to see the issue.

 

Rick's first plan was to have Daryl slit the throats of one of the cops in order to gain entrance to the hospital. It was Tyreese who suggested the hostage exchange.

Later, Rick was about to kill Licari, and it was Daryl who told him that is was better to have three hostages than two.

I consider these actions unjustifiable, as well as bad strategy.

 

He listened though didn't he? Coming to his senses on the hostage exchange and again they didn't know much about the cops other than that they were oppressive dicks that held people against their will, with a few being outright tyrants like the rapist.

Strategy aside it's very justifiable from their vantage point and without hostages that situation wouldn't have worked at all and could have blown up since the Grady cops as a unit were not exactly nice people. The group ended up taking the peaceful/humane route, which Beth sabotaged out of anger towards Dawn.

Rick given an alternative and listening to his companions chose the least violent path.

 

I agree but I like the way the show weaves references of the Governor into the story. It opens up this kind of conversation where on its face you can compare Rick's actions to the Governor and others. It also makes you question the morality of these choices and where exactly the line should be.

Personally I would not have done what Rick's group did. I would have opted to shoring up my own defenses at Alexandria and exploring other options for food. They've been without before and have survived. You're getting in the middle of someone else's battle and you really don't know for certain who is right or wrong. Look at the story the Governor spun to his second group of people to lure them into attacking the prison.

I wouldn't go for a premeditated and unprovoked attack. What would they have done if the first room they had opened up had children in there? It's just bad. I can relate to why they did it after all they've suffered etc, but it would not have been my personal choice.

 

I like your idea. Perhaps its not such an easy task capture a bunch of hostiles and try to turn them to your side as I suggested before - but what if they instead reinforced their own defenses so that no one could ever attack them? I'll even further that by saying they should have joined forces with the Hilltop to increase their population. If we are all trusting what the Hilltop and Jesus is saying about the Saviors, then I think we would trust them enough to join forces. Tell them about Alexandria and invite them to come live in the area and bring their food, livestock, etc. Most of the people at the Hilltop lives in slummy trailers and could even bring them if they really wanted.

 

First, we have seen Rick fly off the hinge on several occasions and I dont think its possible to know exactly what someone is going to do and how they are going to react when they are faced with such a terrible situation. I bet that if Carl and Judith BOTH died, Rick would be changed - and not for the better.

I never took that as the governor killing his own men because his ego was hurt. He killed them because they didn't follow his orders and he couldn't trust them. He spared his two loyal followers. Yes, he did go a little psycho and overboard in this instance for sure.

I think you are taking a BIG leap of faith by saying that the Gov did not care about anyone else - including Penny. It was obvious how much he loved his daughter. It was also obvious that he thought he was doing the right thing to protect the people of Woodbury. He never treated them poorly - he gave them shelter and protection. That is caring about them to me. He could have turned them aside and killed them in cold blood from the beginning, but he didn't. He obviously had some kind of kindness to his heart or else he would have just driven around the countryside with a band of thugs and killed everyone.

I also think you are not remembering the timeline of the show correctly. Rick's group actually launched an assault on Woodbury BEFORE the Gov ever attacked the prison. So no, it wasn't for fun, it was for retaliation.

Furthermore, I also think you are assuming a little too much when you say that the Gov never meant any of the kind words that he said. It's impossible to know the inner workings of one's mind and whether or not he was truthful in those instances. I would like to use the example of those Gov bottle episodes that show that he did genuinely care for others. He put his life in danger when he went to go get a tank of oxygen for Tara's father. He protected Tara and her sister and niece from walkers and wanted to give them a better life. Of course he didn't go about it the right way, but he was much more human than you think.

 

I agree that Daryl had negative run ins with them, but the fact is that none of them were fatal and there was no brutality witnessed. At this point its all fluff and smoke and mirrors.

I feel that one short visit to a place like the Hilltop is way too early to decide that these people are not hostile. Just the sheer fact that they allow themselves to be ruled by a prick like Gregory scares me a bit. Something is amiss in that town, no?

I agree that the pictures proves that individual was indeed twisted - but it was discovered AFTER they already decided to murder the Saviors in their sleep.

 

- Dwight/Sherry scared out of their minds
- HillTop scared out of their minds
- HillTop member stabbing another HillTop member intending to take head back to Saviors
- Daryl's run in, where they threatened to shoot Sasha and Abe and wanted to go back to their location to begin force-ably subjugating them and taking their resources.
- Their acceptance of said head and toying with it like psycho's.

That's all before anything else we find out. If we actually need to see someone kill someone to deem them a threat, against that mountain of evidence, we'd never make it. Merely threatening someone in the lawless post-apocalypse where killing and violent is rampant is subject to causing the opposing person to try to eliminate you.

Members of the Jury, case is closed on Saviors being hostile and a threat to surrounding communities.

 

I couldn't disagree more.

-Yes, Dwight/Sherry were scared and wanted to run away, but when Rick got to Alexandria half of the community was like that. No one wanted him there.

-I never got the impression that Hilltop was scared out of their minds. Seems to me like you are making a leap of faith here.

-I never recall anything about them having to bring the head back when Gregory was stabbed. And again, does anyone really want Gregory to be the leader of that place? It was probably a good thing if he was dead.

-It's true that they wanted to see where they lived, but they never fully stated their intentions.

-In the world that they live in, I'm not surprised they acted like when presented with a head. Need I remind you that this idea was Rick's and his group spent the time to cut these heads off walkers and doctor them up to look like Gregory? Then it was Rick who punched the nose of a severed head several times. I think Rick's group is more psychotic for hatching that plan than the guy who accepted the dead head.

 

The Savior guards acted as if they were expecting to receive Gregory's head. They inspected it, and when they were convinced that it was Gregory, they brought out the hostage. That was the demand they made of the Hilltoppers.

 

I agree with you that the Saviors have done more than enough to assure a reasonable person they are bad people. Daryl and Abe's report would convince me of that.

I do NOT agree with you that Dwight and Sherrie being scared supports this. Remember that they *stole* insulin from the group they left, and who knows what else. How much insulin do the Saviors have? Did they clean them out when they took off? I'm sure that whoever's child that needs said insulin would be more than willing to put a bullet in to either of them to get it back. They also stole from Daryl. A post ZA society that's NOT evil might have harsh punishments for crimes as they can't afford to jail people, so if Dwight knew that stealing would result in his death, he'd be quite scared to return, knowing what it meant for him, all without the Saviors being bad people. It also would be reasonable that the Saviors tried to track them down, as I'm sure Rick would do if Dwight stole the insulin that Carl needed, for example.

People lie. If the Hilltop people did something that broke a contract they had with the Saviors, (for example, say the Saviors had previously made a deal to fight a battle for them in exchange for food) and they were using you as muscle to get out of it, would they tell you the truth about it? After all, the person whose word you're taking tried to trick you and steal the truck full of food you have (something that should or could have gotten him shot!)

Playing with the head doesn't bother me. I'm sure people do all sorts of crazy stuff as stress relief. On accepting the head itself, again, it's only bad for them to accept the head if they are telling the truth. If Gregory's group is lying to you, maybe asking for his head was well deserved.

 

I don't think it was so much that they expected Gregory's head - I just think that in this kind of world with all the shit they've seen that they are numb to things like that. Constantly seeing rotting corpses, disemboweled walkers, and having to stab what were once living people in the brain will do that to you. It seemed to me like delivering his head was more of an idea contrived by Rick to prove that they had done the deed, which was to stab (and ultimately kill) Gregory.

 

^This.

I'm so glad i read the thread first because i would have tried to explain the same thing in a more flimsy way.

 

I'm not sure why you would have tried to convey the same WRONG opinions that he did. :zombies_lol: