I would venture to say most of us don’t really have a good idea of what goes on in these virology labs.He’s a doctor and scientist. His definition of “gain of function”, how he looks at that term, may be very different than the sound bites that the public and Congress keep throwing up at him. When EcoHealth remits all of the data that has now been requested of them, it may change what he thinks but he probably wants to evaluate what comes out first.

 

On the one hand I have no problem with what you're saying, on the other, when Fauci speaks in public he is NOT speaking as a scientist speaking to other scientists who all have a common understanding of a given term, he is speaking to the general public who do NOT share that understanding. He therefore has a duty to clarify his remarks to make sure that his point is understood, and as someone who has been a public spokesman in government for 40 years or so I'd assume he knows that.

So when a politician tells him that gain of function research is occurring in China he has two options: 1. he could say, "I understand what this person is saying, as the Chinese are using our money to see if a virus that affects mice could be made to infect humans - even if the terms he is using aren't entirely correct" and agree that "yes", we were funding gain of function research in China - because that's what deep down gain of function is,

or he could have chosen option 2: To say to himself, I understand what this person is saying, but based on some technicality that I as a scientist know and this person as a layman doesn't, I can say this is NOT gain of function research - even if that is the *intent* of the research.

Fauci chose the latter option. That was the choice a politician would make trying to cover up something, not the one a physician or scientist would make who is interested in uncovering the truth. It's not a decision that I have any respect for, prior service to the public or no.

 

I so if he did this, you would cut him slack?


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He needs a refresher course in debating


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Absolutely.

 

What thread to put this under? A *surgeon* in Minnesota was fired for speaking up at a school board meeting opposing a mask mandate over the will of the parents. This man wasn't speaking about his hospital or revealing information about his patients, but was giving his opinion on masks at a school board meeting! Surgeons are in short supply, and I find it *amazing* the hospital would do this.

Most people would say this is a wake up call, and another example that our freedoms are being taken away, and that it's past time people stood up to defend them. Not me, though, I think the medical group's actions are double plus good.

Sigh, do I need an explanation of the above?

"
A surgeon in Minnesota lost his job this month just days after telling school officials at a public meeting that parents should have the right to decide whether their children wear masks to school or not.

Dr. Jeffrey Horak appeared before the Fergus Falls school board on Oct. 11 and spoke out against a mask mandate that had gone into effect for students the day before.

"You mandate this across the road — that’s a tough place to go," Horak told the board.

"Who does God put in charge of these kids? Their parents. God gave each one of these kids... to their parents and they speak for them. They may be wrong, they may be dumb, they may be perfect in their decisions. But it’s still their responsibility. It’s not yours. God gave it to them. Honor their wishes, either side of the fence."

Nine days after that school board meeting, Horak said he was told his "views were no longer congruent with that of Lake Region Healthcare" and he was asked to either resign or be terminated. "

 

It boils down to Lake Region Healthcare thinking twice,apparently, about having a doctor who was publicly voicing unsound medical advice, really. They must have reasoned, do we want this Dr. treating our patients? What other questionable practices is he embracing.

He should have been encouraging and reassuring the parents that masks are a safe and effective measure to mitigate the spread of disaster ahead of the winter months.

You’re no fool. Of course you agree they did the right thing, which they did.

 

??? Seriously? No, I don't think they did the right thing at all. The right thing would have been to speak to the press and say that his views are just that, his views, and not representative of the institution. Firing a surgeon with 15 years experience because he believes parents should be the ones deciding whether or not their children should wear masks? Nope. I'm not on board with that at all.

And how hard would it be for them to get a bunch of other doctors to say that masks are safe and effective, and that while this might be that doctor's belief none of his colleagues share it? It's a crime to lose an experienced physician over something like this -- assuming there isn't some reason that's not being brought to light, (like questions of competency or malpractice, sexual or alcohol/drug problem, etc.)

I'd look at it like this. Say the guy went out and said that he told his patients smoking was bad, but left it up to them as adults to decide whether or not to smoke after they knew the risks. Or how about telling overweight people that it was better for health reasons to be of normal weight, but overall how much someone ate and weighed was their decision. Should he be fired for stating those beliefs? I don't think so. I suppose my job is at risk as well - and good riddance, you'd say! LOL!

My other problem is that some times the medical community is just *wrong* about something. If you fire everyone who disagrees with a wrong belief, how are things going to improve?

Finally, I do recognize a bit of hypocrisy in the whole mask mandate thing as far as mandating a mask in some situations but allowing people to eat inside restaurants without masks, go to sporting events, etc. IOW, the .gov is willing to practice NON-healthy behavior for economic reasons, but an individual will get fired for advocating for the same? How is that fair?

Finally#2, this particular issue deals with children, though, and they are NOT competent to make decisions for themselves like adults are. IMO the state *should* be able to do what it believes is right for them while under the care of the state. I still wouldn't fire someone just for stating an opposing opinion, though!

 

I mostly agree with you guys that he can express his opinion so long as context is given. He wasn’t giving medical advise. He wasn’t speaking on the health benefits from a medical perspective. He was giving a religious speech about parents rights. If he simply gave his opinion as a concerned citizen, that’s one thing. If he stated that he was a doctor and where he worked, that might have exposed him to restrictions imposed by the hospital. I know my job has limitations on how we use our employers name. It is part of the contracts we sign upon hiring. If he violated some rule, especially if he has been warned before, he might have walked right into it.


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I agree that if he said "as a member of Hospital X, I believe..." then they'd have a right to fire him for making it sound like their organization believed what he did. OTOH, even if he said, "I'm a doctor and have read a great deal on this and my mind's not convinced this is a good idea", I'd disagree with him, but not *fire* him for his belief, especially as it seems sincere and not given for any kind of secondary gain or profit.

I didn't even see where anyone from the medical group talked to him about his opinion before he was fired. Perhaps if his "peers" sat down with him and explained the potential ramifications of his actions he would have changed his mind - or changed theirs.

 

As usual, we only get bits and pieces of the story. What did he preface his statements with? We don't know from what was printed above. Zed had a valid point but even if he just introduced himself as a doctor the lay people in the audience were automatically primed to receive a “medical recommendation”. If he introduced himself as such he had an obligation to first, do no harm. As a surgeon he knows perfectly well that masks work to keep respiratory and/or oral particulates which may be contaminated with viral or bacterial matter from freely escaping into the air space. That’s why they wear them during surgery.

“Surgeons and nurses performing clean surgery wear disposable face masks. The purpose of face masks is thought to be two-fold: to prevent the passage of germs from the surgeon's nose and mouth into the patient's wound and to protect the surgeon's face from sprays and splashes from the patient.”

It is accepted practice in the mitigation of contagious respiratory disease not open for debate among ethical practitioners. Studies have proven mask wearing to be helpful.

We have no idea whether or not this surgeon was in good standing with the medical facility where he was employed. We don’t know if there were previous complaints lodged against him which could have made this the last straw giving them a reason to sever ties with him.

He could have also said that masks worn correctly were known to be effective barriers to disease transmission but if you as a parent don’t want to afford your child that protection, that’s your “God given” right.

Now if that wasn’t the case and he spoke without revealing his profession but as just another parent or grandparent then fine. His opinion carried no more weight than any other parent in the group.

Yes, this man had the constitutional right to express his opinions. No one kept him from speaking but he should have realized that this might have consequences.

 

Yeah, we don't know the whole story, as usual. The "news" in this country really has gone downhill. LOL, I did look the doctor up to see about previous offenses, he got a state reprimand for missing a thyroid cancer in 2015, but that's it.

He definitely should have stated the known benefits of masks and then if he wanted to talk about personal freedom trumping safety so be it. The hospital probably would still fire him though. It's unbelievably chilling on free speech as a concept that someone would be fired for this though, especially given the current staffing situation in health care.

 

Oh, I wouldn’t worry about the Doc. If he washes out in Medicine he might have a future as a congressman, lol.

 

I wasn't worried about the doc. He'll be inconvenienced but otherwise just fine. I was worried about his community that is now short an experienced surgeon. Fergus Falls is in the middle of nowhere, I can't see hordes of surgeons rushing in to fill his shoes, which means delayed or nonexistent care for some people.

 

i don’t know about that. Why not look to hire a new grad and offer to pay off his medical debt if he works for your hospital for x amount of years. Make expectations known up front of what they will or will not accept of their physicians and make it part of their contract. They may not have all the experience yet but they’ll be up on all the latest surgical techniques and innovations.

*that figurative he could be a he or she. I hope more women are becoming surgeons now.

 

Thats why i think he might have been warned prior. If they have a policy that no public recommendations against masks be given, then he is beholden to it. Remember freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom of consequences.


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There are already rural health loan repayment benefits through the .gov. That experience means a *lot*, though, as whether to cut or not cut is a judgement call. The young surgeon will eventually replace the old, but there's no way I'd take someone right out of school compared with someone 10 years in if I had the option.

LOL, many years ago I remember talking with an old surgeon who had a guy right out of training working under him and at the time we were walking through the young surgeon was in the process of performing a hemicolectomy. When we moved on the old surgeon turned to me and said, "that colon didn't need to come out, but I never criticize" and I thought (whaaaaatttt? that patient is without his bowels for what????) Anyway, I guess my point is that experience is important.

If you said "he" for a surgeon you'd be right more often than not. There are more women surgeons all the time, although women are still a minority and likely will be for some time. OTOH, fields like family practice, peds, and ob/gyn have more women than men entering them. I think medicine is really becoming a pretty equal place, overall - especially when you add in that nursing and administration is predominately run by women at all levels, it's getting to where men are going to be the "minority" in influence.

 

Thanks again, China.

"
The global death toll from COVID-19 topped 5 million on Monday, less than two years into a crisis that has not only devastated poor countries but also humbled wealthy ones with first-rate health care systems.

Together, the United States, the European Union, Britain and Brazil — all upper-middle- or high-income countries — account for one-eighth of the world’s population but nearly half of all reported deaths. The U.S. alone has recorded over 740,000 lives lost, more than any other nation.

"This is a defining moment in our lifetime," said Dr. Albert Ko, an infectious disease specialist at the Yale School of Public Health. "What do we have to do to protect ourselves so we don’t get to another 5 million?"

The death toll, as tallied by Johns Hopkins University, is about equal to the populations of Los Angeles and San Francisco combined. It rivals the number of people killed in battles among nations since 1950, according to estimates from the Peace Research Institute Oslo. Globally, COVID-19 is now the third-leading cause of death, after heart disease and stroke. "

https://www.foxnews.com/health/covid-19-death-toll-5-million

 

“The U.S. alone has recorded over 740,000 lives lost, more than any other nation.”

Thanks rump. I guess that all the proof you need that his rhetoric led to unnecessary deaths.


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