You guys have 2 different arguments going on. One is chronic classic alcoholism [daily drinking with psychological or physiological withdrawal], and then there's binge drinking. The AMA actually defines binge drinking as having 4 or more drinks at a sitting, even if you only do it twice a year. You don't have to get 'fall down, destroy your life, drunk' to be classified at a binge drinker, those are just the more severe cases. I'd be worried about a chronic alcoholic in a ZA, and I might be worried about a severe binge drinker too, if they did it often enough and our situation was unstable enough. But in a ZA, if I was in a situation at least as stable as the prison, during its best times, and someone started a 'lets get buzzed once a week' club...i'd join. And I'd probably have a glass of wine or 2 every night with dinner, if it was available. Staying sane under that stress is important too. But yeah, i'd probably only be getting 'fall down drunk' very rarely, as I'd be worried about getting attacked while I was drunk.

 

They also didn't reveal what Bob is like when he is drinking or what the consequences have been for his behavior under the influence of alcohol in the past. Maybe he has good reason to be so tormented over it?

 

If someone snatched a bag out of your hand and decided to throw away something of yours, would you feel attacked?

If it ruins someone's life then they aren't functional, are they?

Bob definitely seems ashamed. Is it because his drinking has ruined lives or because he's been conditioned by people to believe drinking is some sort of universal sin? It could be either, but at this point (without bleedover from the comics) we don't know.

If an addict needs an enabler, again, he or she is not functional. Being a functional alcoholic means you can pull your weight in society but might be doing damage to yourself.

I'm actually hypersensitive to this subject because I had a friend of the family, a lady I grew up around, who I didn't see for several years that I happened to run into on several occasions years apart - occasions where I was drinking (like New Year's Eve). This woman who I loved like a relative took it on herself to counsel me about how terrible alcoholism was. She literally showed up on my doorstep with AA literature. I told her I'm not an alcoholic. She patted me on the hand and said denial was normal. I told her I only drink once every couple of months. She patted me on the hand and said that lying about drinking was also perfectly normal. I now avoid someone I love, not because of alcoholism, but because this teetotaler attitude that anyone who ever drinks alcohol is on a path to destroying their lives (and ironically, in this case, the lady in question has a drink herself now and then).

My point is that whether Bob is an addict has yet to be shown on the series, but even if he is, until it causes a problem, it's not a problem.

 

IT DID CAUSE A PROBLEM. IT CAUSED SEVERAL.

Bob believed that he was responsible for Zach's death. Bob was almost dragged off the roof because he wouldn't let go of the bottle, and endangered the rest of the team who had to save him. When Daryl went to throw the bottle away Bob started to go for his gun. Bob is obviously miserable. Do these not seem like problems to you?

 

I like a drink now and again myself. But I'd have a few trust issues with a guy who admits to only going on a run in order to get alcohol, who risks his life fighting walkers over a bottle of alcohol and who reaches for his gun when someone takes his bottle of alcohol. Even more so when I don't know the circumstances of how he was the last guy standing from 2 different groups.

 

I agree with all that. Apparently that makes us untrustworthy alcoholics because the bottle Bob grabbed didn't look to have enough hooch to give a grown man a buzz unless it was pure grain alcohol.

Bob's shame has definitely caused problems.

It made him put back the wine bottle instead of just keeping it like any other adult on the planet would have done if he or she wanted some wine. It caused him to blame himself for Zack's death instead of blaming the writer who decided to have a shelf that is apparently holding up an entire store roof and the zombies shambling around on top of it be so fragile that not being careful when placing something on it would bring about a zombie hailstorm.

Yes, endangering the mission to wrestle a zombie over the bag was poor judgment.

Again, forget what Bob did for a second. If someone you've known for 2 weeks snatched your bag out of your hand and decided to throw away something you wanted just so you couldn't have it, would it be reasonable for you to feel attacked? If you'd lived in a world where virtually all attacks were life and death situations and your first instinct was to go for your gun when you feel threatened, would it be reasonable to think your hand might drift to your gun if you feel attacked? If it did, after a moment's thought had you realizing this wasn't an attack that called for deadly force, would it be reasonable for you to then take your hand off the gun? Now, remember again what Bob did.

I have no problem with being watchful of Bob and keeping an eye on his actions - he's only been with them a couple of weeks. Hell, I'd be watchful of everyone. You've got Rick carrying a gun again, a guy who went crazy. Not a little unstable crazy - batshit, talking to imaginary ghosts on the phone and chasing them through the woods and screaming and drawing down on pretty much anyone who talked to him crazy. With the exception of Lil' Asskicker, there's no one I wouldn't be keeping half an eye on in case they got me killed.

As for this particular mission: I don't remember his specifically saying he was only there to get some alcohol, but I'm willing to accept that he did. Now, even with his dubious reason for being there, was he a help or hindrance? Was the fact that he was the only one of the who could identify the needed meds a good thing? Was his noticing that the zombies had fever signs more likely a good thing or did it more likely hurt the group?

Contrast that with Tyreese

Did he do anything at all that was helpful, or did it seem like his personal goal was to get himself and everyone with him killed?

I'm definitely not saying don't watch Bob. It's the freaking zombie apocalypse!! Watch everyone. I'm just saying judge him on his actions and his actions have been overwhelmingly valuable to the survival of the group (with the obvious exception of playing bag tug-of-war with a zombie).

 

I think what Daryl meant was that while everyone else was busy gathering as many bottles of medicine that they could carry, all Bob was gathering and carrying was that bottle of alcohol. Also, the fact that Bob wouldn't drop the bag and was reaching for his handgun over the situation. And, Daryl would have issues with this type of behavior since he came from an abused situation before the ZA where his father was an alcoholic. It will be interesting to see how this whole storyline progresses.

 

Well, Bob was doing a majority of med grabbing. I rewatched the scene, and Bob was stuffing the meds into a different sack, while his booze was in his personal bag. So he didn't actually sacrifice any meds in place of the booze. I guess Daryl's point was that he just was carrying any meds at the time, while everyone else was.

 

I think Daryl's problem was that he nearly got pulled off the roof to save a bottle. And they had to run back and help him for a bottle. It was as stupid as Tyreese nearly getting everyone killed at the gas station.

They both need a kick in the ass.

 

Damn right. I'm not giving him my change. When the ZA rolls around I'm keeping my change for ME.

Now that I've got that out of my system, if the guy's alcoholism didn't affect him when he's on duty, I'd let him do what he wants, with the understanding that if he's passed out drunk when (not IF, this is Rick's group) we get overrun, he's on his own. None of the rest of the group are going to endanger themselves trying to carry him out, etc.

If he can live with that, so can I.

 

This is my feeling on the matter too. I think there are two personality types at work in discussions like this where one type feels that someone shouldn't be allowed to do something because... well, because it's just wrong dammit!! The other feels like people should be allowed to do anything as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else - not could theoretically hurt someone, but actually proves to be a real danger.

The rules our current societies have that are "for your own good" aren't about keeping people safe, they're about not becoming a financial burden on the rest of society. Given the prison's level of government, that sort of reasoning is a little silly, and so is holding on to attitudes that were based on such reasoning.

 

As a second point, a little honesty in Rick's group would help. I'd want everyone to know what happened, and would give Bob a full case of whiskey and tell him to drink his liver out if he wanted to, but to be sober on duty, or he was out. If he's drunk and there's some emergency, he's on his own. Other than that, he can drink to his heart's content.

But I'd rather just give him the booze than have him do a bunch of dangerous and underhanded stuff to get it. After all, like someone said above, these people aren't likely to live full lives, they might not live out the night. If the guy wants to spend the rest of his life drinking, so be it. He's an adult and it's a free country.

Oops, the only other thing is I'd require him to lock himself in his cell before going on a bender. I don't want him Jimi Hendrixing and coming back to kill innocent people.

And finally, if he DOES want to quit, isn't herschel an AA member or something? He could be his guide if Bob wants one.

 

This would depend on whether Bob is a full blown alcoholic, or dependent on alcohol / an alcohol abuser. If he is a full blown alcoholic who is currently abstinent from alcohol, then the idea that he could control his drinking to go on runs or be sober on duty is one that alcoholics learn over & over again the hard way; that this cannot be done. They actually have done brain scans on alcoholics that show damage to the part of the brain that helps a person self regulate / control drinking. Reintroducing alcohol would be like opening Pandora's box, and trying to control the drinking would be a physical impossibility. If he is not at that point yet, and is more of a "high bottom" drinker, who stopped before he got to that point, and who still might be able to moderate drinking, then maybe. They haven't really given enough info on Bob and his past for us to know.

 

But if we gave him the case of booze we'd know, and wouldn't have to dance around it.

Sigh. I'm really not trying to encourage alcoholism, but am trying to place myself in a ZA situation, and I realize that I'm approaching the problem very selfishly. Using Rick's group as an example, no one in there has lost LESS than half the people they started with, and these are the SURVIVORS of the ZA. Every day there's some emergency with walkers, food is short, you live in a prison... I just wouldn't have the energy to sit and babysit an alcoholic. If Bob can pull his own weight, great. If not, he can go endanger someone else's family, but I'd want to find out which it was *now*, and without a bunch of drama.

 

Maybe that's part of why they introduced bob in the first place (like others have mentioned), is it gives us a very legitimate scenario of what we might be dealing with in the ZA. They are illustrating that the kinds of people who are difficult to deal with in real life are the same ones who would be difficult here, only here, you are stuck with them. All of the feelings and frustrations you mentioned regarding how you would feel if put in their shoes and having to deal with a "bob" are the exact frustrations people feel in real life, dealing with a loved one who is struggling with alcoholism or some other addiction. And some audience members might know what it feels like first hand to be struggling with addiction, or what it feels like to have something you hate and really want to change about yourself but just can't, so maybe they can sympathize with bob. Maybe the writers meant to stir those feels up in us on purpose because that's how we would feel in real life. Only in the ZA, you are dealt whatever hand you are dealt, and when you bring a new member into the group, you are dealing with all aspects of the person, warts and all and just have to make the best of it (unless you are carol, then you get banished, even if you have good intentions haha)

 

If someone took what was mine and went to throw it away I'd feel attacked and I'm not in a ZA. What Daryl did would get him killed in some places even outside of a ZA. Try walking up to a good 'ole boy walking out of a liquor store and grabbing their bottle and throwing it away.

 

HEHE "good 'ole boy and his bottle", nice analogy. But lets face it this is a ZA, life and death. Not Friday night, off for a lil romp. I'm also thinking the 'council' has a zero tolerance policy where recreational controlled substances are concerned ...which is probably why the writers killed off Merle:Grin:

 

I am pretty sure he told Daryl the only reason he went on the Big Spot run was for booze. Not sure about the medicine run...that may or may not have been for the same reason. From what was in the bag, he apparently did not pull medicine until after he got his booze though.

I also don't think we can say with certainty that the booze is actually his. Do we know for sure what the personal property rights are in their little group? Looted items are quite likely communal or under the control of the Council. I doubt they would let Michonne keep the medicine she looted and let her decide who would get it or what would be done with it. I bet the Council would decide that. And Daryl is a member of the council. He may have every right in the world (their world) to smash that bottle into a million pieces on his authority alone.

As far as Ty, I agree to a certain extent that he should be watched too. But, he has been with them for probably 5 or 6 months and has pitched in quite a bit for the group from what we have seen. Whereas Bob has been there about 2 weeks I think and his actions have seemed to revolve around acquiring booze and not the good of the group. I do not think they would be treated or watched equally in their current society.

 

I don't remember the chronology of when Bob did what in the classroom, but from what I recall, he ran into the bottle while searching the room and just grabbed it. Whether it was before, while or after getting the meds is not really an issue because when he found the bottle, he wasn't actually searching for alcohol. It just happened to be there.

You are right. I hadn't considered that the council may have established protocols for dealing with resources and property. I would, though, bet they haven't established rules about anything. Keep in mind that in the six months between seasons 3 and 4, their only accomplishments have been building a more secure main gate, a pig pen and a small garden (and it's heavily implied that Rick alone is responsible for the latter 2 things). No, I'd bet they're more at the "everybody be reasonable about things" stage as opposed to "here's our book of laws. Toe the line or Rick will get rid of you".

The only mention I can remember of Ty's contribution to the group since he's been in the prison is his trying to justify to Karen why he refuses to help with fence duty. While we can make blanket assumptions that everyone who is there has been pulling his or her weight, from what we've actually seen, it's just Rick and Carol who've done everything (but fence duty) within the prison and Daryl and Michonne who've done everything outside the prison.

My point with comparing Bob and Ty's relative value on this run is that having Ty along is like bringing an untrained dog - he may sniff out something valuable to the group and defend them from danger or he may run through a building barking to attract zombies. That seems far more of a liability than a guy who, outside one quirk, has been nothing but helpful. Now, obviously, his wanting a drink has caused problems, both because of the magic rickety shelf holding up a building and the zombie tug-of-war, but we don't know what he's going to do if he gets that drink.

If he gets a drink and immediately hops up on the nearest table, strips naked and starts yelling, "Whoo-Hoo!! Walk on this, you skin eating, biting freaks!!" - someone should probably talk to him. If, on the other hand, he gets absolutely sloshed every night before bed and wakes up ready to pull his weight (the way some alcoholics do in our world), I don't see a problem. The point is that we don't know and Daryl doesn't know. All Bob has told him is that he would drink anything to be able to sleep.

 

Maybe Bob is not the only one with this problem. They can start a AA club.