Within the realm of 2016 America? No, of course not.

Within the realm of the ZA? Probably.

Within the realm of Negan's way of thinking? Abso-effin'-lutely.

 

I'm sorry that you feel that I am going after you, which is not the case. As a matter of fact, I didn't even see your earlier comment about "his guts" when writing my first reply on this thread. Only after you felt directly addressed I checked what you had posted.

Anyway, I think you didn't get my point. I don't judge you because I don't know you. Yet everybody "judges" from what others write, whether they are right or wrong with their analyses.
So, judging from what you are saying, it seems that there is an alarming lack of empathy in this particular situation, and it doesn't really matter if it's a fictional character or not.
There is a certain standard in society, a certain line that should not be crossed when it comes to the benefit of other living beings.
This extends to fictional situations as well because fiction is always a mirror of reality.
If it weren't we wouldn't enjoy fiction it all. Simple as it is.


Let me paste something here that might explain it in detail:


"The way we respond to fictional characters, he says, has a lot to do with our ability to connect with others and to feel for a person’s situation. “We’d have no way of processing a character cognitively if we didn’t have experiences with people outside of the fictional world,” he explains. “The experiences with fictional characters resonate with us because of the fact that we’ve had deep experiences with people throughout our lives.”


Empathy and sympathy are phenomena we experience almost daily in our dealings with others, and they play key roles in the way we respond to fictional characters. According to social psychologists, empathy allows us to experience another person’s feelings (or at least reconstruct what we think that other person is going through). Empathy can then lead to sympathy, or our ability to understand that another person is experiencing pain, which often makes us wish to alleviate that pain for them. So long as a director gives proper perspective on a fictional character—allowing us to both imagine their pain and to perceive their experience from a distance, as done in Forrest Gump—we can momentarily let go of the fact that that character exists only in the realm of fiction. We cry when their dreams are dashed or they are killed, and we celebrate with them when things go their way. In other words, we connect with them on an emotional level, as we would with a friend."


Here is the link, there is a bit more to read.


https://www.wheretowatch.com/2013/0...nding-why-we-feel-a-real-connection-to-actors


Others here have already explained that they don't think Spencer really deserved it but that he had it coming due to Negan's pesonality and Spencer's own doing.
Whereas you still claim that he truly deserved it.
Yes, I find that quite alarming. That deosn't mean that I think you are a brutal/violent person. In no way would I ever blame a stranger of something like this.


I just wonder why so many comments under real-life articles, like news for example, are so often so very callous and humiliating. To me it seems that some people have lost their ability to empathize with others. The distance between a stranger, even a real person, and oneself is so big that there are no feelings left for them at all. People are being bullied, insulted or even threatened, whether it's the people in the article or fellow commentators.


The ability to feel empathy with others, fictional charaters, anonymous real people or people that are in the news for whatever reason is not a weakness. Those who do are not little rainbow-unicorns hiding in the basement of mum and dad.


It is indeed a natural thing to compare reality to fiction and to see paralles, resulting in empathizing with fictional characters whether you like them or not.

 

I went from "like" to "lovin' Negan when I seen that. That dude was on my last nerve.

 

First paragraph: You directly addressed anyboy that didn't share your opinion as abnormal. I contend that vengeance is a normal human trait.

Second paragraph: You judged and insinuated that there was something wrong with anybody that doesn't agree with you.The show is not 2016 American society. I get your point. I don't agree with it. It is your opinion, not a fact.Yet you continue to insinuate that anybody that doesn't agree is abnormal. Just because you and Rachel share an opinion doesn't make it a fact. I didn't read her article. Don't really care.

"There is a certain standard in society, a certain line that should not be crossed when it comes to the benefit of other living beings."
Now you are trying to set standards for society. Maybe a large portion of people won't agree with your standards.This is starting to take a PETA tone. And not " People Eating Tasty Animals" PETA.

First paragraph after link: And they are entitled to their opinion. They didn't call people abnormal for not agreeing with them.In TWD world he deserved it. I am discussing TWD.

The rest of it: Don't care other than YOU came on the interwebs and insulted people.

 

The way I see it, Spencer was going to die. His mind set, to kill Rick, put him on a dangerous path. And he wasn't going to change that way of thinking.
But he was a weak man and couldn't do it himself. That is why he wanted Negan to do it.
This way of thinking only left one outcome. Spencer was going to die.
Either by Rick, but in the end, by Negan.

Michonne said it best "Angry makes you stupid, stupid gets you killed ".

 

Wow! Thanks for bursting my bubble. You might as well tell me that my childhood is ruined. Sorry you feel this way, you are welcome not to watch the show anymore. The show feels very real to me however, I believe there is a "Complaints and Criticisms" and "Walking Dead Complaints" thread you can go to. You might still be "Just Kidding"? So I'm probably over reacting to this.

 

Vengeance? I thought it's only a tv show...

Ehm... no.
It's still not just an opinion. Just like, for example, racism isn't just an opinion.
And yes, rooting for the horrific brutality of a psycho is not normal. But actually, what I called not normal was the very fact that some supported a cruel punishment that didn't fit the crime even in the slightest way.

I expected that. Had you read it you would have noticed the reference to what psychologists say.

And again.. no.
It's a pity that you don't know the standards of society.

Of course, there are countless people who don't agree with the standards, which is why there are so many criminals, terrorists and idiots outthere who do everything in their power to make other people's life a misery.
Yet, the normal standards are there to protect society. There is an ethical direction, whether you like it or not.

No matter how often you repeat it, it's not about mere opinions.
Too bad you really didn't get my point.
By the way, you are the one insulting others, you've tried it in the last three posts. So far you haven't delivered any good argument that supports your "opinion".

Perhaps you'd like to enlighten me and tell us why you really think he deserved it? I'm curious.

 

Yes vengeance. I never said I didn't feel anything.

Yes it is opinion. That is the point you are missing. I couldn't care less if your opinion differs from mine. And yes the writer and psychologists that support whatever view ... That is their opinion. It is theory. Theory is opinion. There are psychologists that disagree also. That is their opinion. It doesn't make either right or wrong, just different. And who in hell is talking about racism here? And what does that have to do with any of this? Obfuscate and deter much? Nobody in this thread mentioned racism until you did. Can we assume you are racist?

And yes, rooting for the horrific brutality of a psycho is not normal.
I didn't do this why bring it up?
cruel punishment that didn't fit the crime even in the slightest way.
This is an opinion. Like it or not,it is an opinion. If you aren't capable of understanding this then there is no point to this conversation.
And there you go again... Assuming and insulting because you think I don't know the standards of society. Then you proceeded to lecture on something that has nothing to do with any of this.You took something I said and turned it into something I didn't say then belittled me for what I didn't say. I said "your standards" because of the "living beings" and the way the sentence was written.It doesn't say what society,who's lines or what classifies living beings. I am not getting caught up in a "living being" discussion here. There is more than one society in today's world. So I can play your game and assume you meant you support sharia law? See how that works. Sharia is a practiced society in todays world.

By the way, Spencer was in the process of crossing several lines that are not considered acceptable in modern American society. Conspiracy to commit murder is the same as murder one in many states. That is what he was doing. So, life in prison? Oh wait, no prisons. Who's gonna' feed him? Not enough food now (an entirely different suspension of disbelief for a different thread).

In the society on the show rules are made/changed as time progresses.So essentially there are no rules. Season 1,2 Rick would never advocate what happened at the outpost. Randle as an example; Season six2 Rick would likely cap him or leave him on the fence.

I think you are the one that is not getting the point. I totally understand what you are saying. Except when you bring up stuff that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. But that is a way to confuse and detract from what is being discussed. I don't agree with what you are saying. I don't think your opinion is fact.

I've stated the reasons I think Spencer should have died. They are good enough for me. You even said "another danger was eliminated". If they aren't good enough for you, oh well. That's your opinion. I never said it was wrong or that you are not normal.

All I'm saying is keep going around telling people they aren't normal, assuming things about them, and then lecturing condescendingly to them. Come back in ten years and let me know how that works out for you.

 

I'll try one last time.

No, but you stated several times that this is only a tv show that it's not real (which, of course, is true). That you told me after I explained that naturally, people compare such fictional situations to the real world.
And I was referring to the moral compass, to empathy, for example
This wasn't an argument for you since it was not real (and again: true, it isn't real). Yet it is an argument for you when it comes to your feelings of vengeance.
Double-standard.
And you confirmed exactly what I said the whole time: the audiences have emotions, feelings when watching (or reading) fictional stuff.
We compare such fictional situations and characters to our real world, we ask ourselves what we would do, we share the feelings of some characters and react similar as we would in real life. Just not to that extent since we know it's not real. Although there are cases of people who indeed felt so real with happenings on fictional stories that they suffered from depression and some even killed themselves.
But generally, we have emotions, whether good or bad and we can't really escape them.


That being said, the emotions of those who think that Spencer deserved it were "bad" ones. They felt that somebody like him had to die and some even enjoyed the extremely brutal way he died.
Remember, all that by comparing the situations to real life - otherwise there wouldn't be any emotions.


The story is fiction - the emotions you have are real.


That doesn't mean that people who feel that way go out and kill others. However, their emotions tend to the basic and lower instincts. What we all do with it, how we handle such thoughts and feelings distinguishes us from those who follow them regardless the consequences.
But still, the emotions are there. And in a civilzed world, everyone should be able to admit that a brutal death can never be right.


Do you now understand what I am talking about?

No, there you are wrong.
Psychology is not happy riddle guessing but a science. Of course, like in every scientific field there are still things that need to be solved. It goes for all sciences, from physics to psychology and every other field. It's called learning and progress. Science is not the end of wisdom but the beginning.
If you can come up with new scientific theories or even discoveries that are based on facts and can be proved, let me know. But then it wouldn't be an opinion.

It might be hard to understand, but it was a comparison to make clear why what some, including you, write is not just an opinion. The moment that human rights are violated we can't regard it as an opinion anymore. And racism is one of the examples.
Such things are part of ideologies, not opinions.

You did when you happily supported and enjoyed the brutal death of the fictional character.

No, it's not just an opinion. It's common sense and part of the laws of the western world, even in the USA.
It's also part of the general human rights.
In the real world.
On TWD, things have changed. But, as written above, we are still here and compare to our world and our own moral standards.

Thanks for that, you made my point.
The practiced and executed Sharia law violates the standards of human rights.
That's the ethical direction I was talking about, the moral standards of society. Oppression and cruel punishment does not follow any ethical virtue but simply (in this case, religious) fanatism and lower instincts.
There are multiple examples for practiced unethical standards. You can find them in all religions and most ideologies.
By the way, the standards of TWD's society would also be one of them (compared to our real word).

Now you are talking and finally referring to the show by bringing up some arguments.
Alas it's not true that Spencer wanted Rick to be killed when talking to Negan. On the contrary, he said no when Negan assumed the wanted murder of Rick.


In case I missed something and Spencer indeed said at one point that he wanted Rick dead, it is a difference between saying it or doing it.
You can't punish a person by death for talking. That's another part of society's standard. Imagine people would be killed for simply stating their wishes.


Not to mention that he just did not kill Rick, and even in the USA or other civilized countries that practice death penalty, people are not sentenced to death for wishing death on someone.
That is why the punishment didn't fit the crime at all. And Spencer's crime was treason, not murder.


As for your argument that he might have become a danger and that it was better (and well deserved...) that he was slaughtered by psycho-Negan who CAUSED the problems in the first place,:
how could anybody know what happens in the future and what people will do?
Remember Morgan who killed each and everyone in his trauma and who even wanted to kill the ones who helped him?
He changed and is now (so far) a valuable member of Rick's group. Remember Merl who was a true killer and a***hole but then sacrificed himself for others in the end.
Father Gabriel who killed dozens of people who only asked for help. And now he would give his life for the group.
You can never know what lies ahead. Yes, Spencer was a danger and I'm not sad that he is out of the show.
Yet there is always the potential for people to change.
And Spencer did not kill, whereas the others I mentioned did.


So no. No matter what, he did not deserve to die, especially not the way he did. Not even in this horrible and twisted world of TWD.

 

Absolutely not taking sides in this 'discussion' but just wanted to point out that Morgan built a jail cell in season 6 and Rick was standing in it in the MSF.

 

It's interesting to consider the kind of dislike/disdain/hatred that Spencer inspired. It reminded me of the reactions to Father Gabriel before he grew a pair. Both were essentially weak people who were more likely to take than to give. I see Spencer as wanting to be a leader but suffering from "second son syndrome": always a bit in the shadow of the older sibling, struggling to define who he was. Was he the person who stopped the looting, and made the poignant observation that this would be the moment they lost their community? Or the person who then stole for himself? Was he the person who joined the fight (albeit reluctantly) in "No Way Out"? Or the person who hid food, liquor, and guns for himself?

He kept referencing his mother as a leader, and saying that he was equipped to do the same. He saw himself as preparing for a summit with another leader, a civilized discussion. It's a testament to the extent of his "before-time" worldview that he thought this discussion would be possible with someone who named the ball bat he used to bash people's brains in. I don't actually believe he wanted Rick killed (though I don't think he would have grieved the death). He thought it was time for someone with a more nuanced hand to be guiding the community.

So did he deserve it in the sense of the punishment fitting the crime? No, he didn't. Was it necessary from a story perspective, to show ASZ (and the audience) the kind of twisted moral code that Negan has? Yes, it was.

 

Very perceptive. I felt sorry for Spencer when we first saw him in the series because he appeared to be a disrespected nobody to his parents and the rest of the Alexandrians-- second to Aiden who was a far bigger jerk than Spencer and got a death, accidental though it was, becoming to his disrespect to everyone else. Spencer. I don't know what Spencer would have been like if he'd had a decent macho male mentor. In that sense only, Spencer, jerk though he was, didn't deserve they way he went. But. basically Spencer's proposal was to join Negan and help enslave his own people. For whatever reason, Negan has a soft spot for Carl and Rick, and he hates and distrusts traitors. The sad part for Spencer is he was so clueless, he failed to understand the risks of what he was doing in talking to Negan.

 

Father G got it right when he called Spencer a shit and walked back to ASZ, the writing was on the wall. "oh yes he got guts my mistake!!!"

 

I think there would be a lot of Spencers in a ZA. Way too many Spencers.

 

I think there are a lot of Spencers in the real World. Way too many.

 

He RIPped like a bitch

 

Yes. He wasn't as smart as he thought. He came off as a condescending asshat. Glad he is gone and I actually enjoyed watching him get torn apart.

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