While I still kind of like Morgan, if he maintains this philosophy he is absolutely a danger to the group. You could argue that he already has 15 Alexandrian deaths on his hands, as well as RPG, and even, really, the 20 wolves that died. (You could argue that had they not found and attacked Alexandria those wolves wouldn't have been killed...at least that day.)

So he needs to see that sometimes, not killing results in more deaths.

 

Well said!

 

I like Morgan. I always have. But I still think his current pacifism is dangerous. We've seen the results of that already--Rick almost got killed by the Wolves Morgan let go. And with the Alpha Wolf still in town, it's only a matter of time before someone gets hurt.

 

I sympathise more with Morgan now, but it's still quite a weak mindframe to go by if you ask me.

 

In the beginning I liked Morgan. I liked him in Clear also.I could even understand how he got to where he was at. I do not care much for the Morgan I see now and this episode has not changed my opinion.His philosophy is pretty on paper but to bring it to the “nasty now and now”. . . . I think not. It’s just too dangerous.

 

Thanks! Exactly what i meant, but i was a little drunk when i typed it...

j/k

 

It's interesting to see how people turn on such a beloved character as Morgan just because he doesn't want to kill people. I actually sided with Carol during the wolf fight...i was yelling at Morgan to just kill the bastard. But i still adore him as a character and understand where he's coming from. It'll be interesting to see how this all unfolds. If Morgan dies in any way, i think it will be one of the saddest moments in Walking Dead history. He was the first person responsible for Rick surviving to find his family, and throughout every season there was always that possibility of him being out there somewhere. For that to be over will be...ugh i can't even think about it.

 

I like the thought of the mindset he has, but right now, that mindset is dangerous. If they had food to "waste" on these people, a prison, people volunteering to guard them, and more people willing to try to rehabilitate them, then cool. At the moment, a system like that is not set up.

 

Correct! It's a coping mechanism so they can deal with the reality they live in. Eastman's sacrifice and being totally okay with dying to the point where it was a relief shows this.

Morgan truly is a nutcase with no mind of his own. One extreme to the other.

 

We make an assumption that Morgan is a sufficiently-educated person that can understand what he has learned from Eastman and but more importantly, its limitations - living alone like Eastman makes it unlikely one has to accept those limitations. But Morgan is not. Not in the story that I know of. Which means he is just like most of us. Prone to brain washing and prone to find something to hold on to in a very f'd up world and steadfastly believe in the same at all costs. Unfortunately, it has gotten several killed and may get even more killed but Morgan will never see that....one need only look to some of the religious fanatics out there. Even when they are told that their interpretations of the literal meaning of the scripture is wrong with historical evidence of the same, they continue to believe that literal interpretation to their detriment....Morgan is just the same.

Episode was too long.

I think the group will just have to decide to tell him to leave or accept his faults.

 

My sentiments exactly.

I've always liked Morgan's character and his newfound "all life is precious" philosophy doesn't irk me as much as it does a lot of folks. However, I agree with previous posters that it does need to be tempered with some degree of pragmatism now that he is among a group of people. If he chooses to follow his philosophy due to a genuine epiphany or simply because it is a coping mechanism, that is fine for him. However, he should not allow himself to become so blinded by it that he demands it of others (i.e. his confrontation with Carol) in a survival, kill or be killed situation.

Of course, his pacifism is in conflict with the "do what needs has to be done" mentality Rick's group has adapted to survive, and the results of the wedge that is being driven between the two remains to be seen. I'd like to think that Morgan would leave the settlement of his own volition rather than compromise the safety of the group. However, his foolish decision to keep the injured Wolves captive within the walls, rather than at least blindfolding him, taking him a reasonable distance from the settlement then letting him fend for himself, leaves me less than optimistic.

 

The reason WTD is such a great show has nothing to do with zombies. It has to do with making the toughest of decisions in the toughest of circumstances. At your worst, who are you?

Herschel had some great quotes about always being in danger but getting to choose what you are willing to put yourself in danger for. Rick has two kids he has to look out for. They are all that really matters to him and why he takes the hard line. But saying "I'd be good turning into a cold hearted killer if the circumstances demanded it" is such a cop out for the audience. Because when things get tough at work/home people bail all the time and they haven't been asked to erase their entire conditioning. So the characters on the show have to come to their own new realities. And the basis of Morgans was well founded. He was taught that he COULD come back from the brink. And shown how to do so by a man that had made the same journey.

Its why I thought Glenn's death was so important. That taking additional risk to save others around you will always eventually come back to haunt you. And that Morgan is now taking those risks with other people is really important.

I think what is going to happen is that the remaining Alexandrians, who still have little understanding of the world they live in, will begin the careful calculus on how to live and how to take risk. And Morgan's ideals on peace and life will resonate with them. They will attempt to live a peaceful existence only to learn how the rest of the remaining populace got so hardened.

I really loved that the episode really showed how fragile Morgan's new identity is. If he is forced to kill someone, even defending Judith, it could get ugly.

 

Morgan is at the extreme end of things. Rick is not extreme, Rick is very balanced out considering what he has to deal with and protect. What was Rick ever done that is extreme?

When has Rick ever killed anyone other than in self defense or the defense of others, even if taking the offensive to eliminate a serious threat that could harm his people? Everybody that Rick killed had to be killed, not even debatable. His errors have included being far too soft in some cases and that got people killed. They wouldn't have lost the Prison had he just killed the Governor, going on the offensive after they retreated or orchestrating an assault during the negotiations as per Merle's suggestions.

The Prison was arguably far more secure than Alexandria, it took a tank to really compromise it. Alexandria will be compromised by far less.

Rick's as altruistic as it's going to get in a ZA.

 

That's a very good question!

Unfortunately, the answer is "no". The reason being that IMO, it's fine for a strong, skilled person not to want to kill anything, it's NOT fine for that strong skilled person to allow the violent people he lets go go and kill others.

If Morgan was honest with the ASZ, and told him his beliefs, actions, etc., and they wanted him, I'm 100% fine with that. But we see by Morgan's keeping the Wolf in secret that he is NOT being honest with them, and so I don't have any respect for him.

 

A lot of good posts in here from people not bothered by his philosophy. Nobody balanced is going to be a murderer and so into the dark side of the psyche that they're as fragile from that angle as an Alexandrian or Morgan not willing to pull the trigger.

And I really can't cite enough examples to where Rick's group, even Carol, have been extremely humane given their predicament and environment they live in.

You know the whole "1st world problems" motif -- imagine people really going through stuff like in this show, Rick's group, and then still holding onto a good amount of humanity and caring about others to a great extent - but not an extent that people would in the previous civilized society(which I can say that people harm themselves by doing so in this world because incorrigible people need to be exiled from your life, they drain you, but in a ZA they don't drain you, they kill you).

I can appreciate someone taking on pacifist peace views as a form of personal betterment and healing....

But...

As we have stated that there is a difference between a killer and a murderer, there is also a difference between being humane and being stupid to the point of critical security risk to yourself and others.

The show is so good because it puts all of these different view points to the test in extreme environments, but it seems only the really astute fans see it and most people are just into character fanboying and zombie gore.

 

Exactly. Morgan is mentally unbalanced, and that is reflected in his all or nothing tendencies. Since you've read the comics, though, I have a question for you...

Someone insinuated (I think it was this thread) that Rick will move toward Morgan's philosophy, proving Morgan correct. Does this happen in the comics? I can't see it working without a lot of people dying as a result, and if it did, it would be a plot contrivance, IMO. The ZA world isn't conducive to the idiotic "let murderers run free and hope they change their ways!" mentality. Hell, our world isn't conducive to it either. All that sort of thing will do is get innocent people killed.

 

Morgan is a total nutcase and a huge liability. In the episode 3 sub forum myself and others, including you said all these same things that episode 4 has revealed.

I'm glad for the episode because it sets up the Rick/Morgan dynamic better and showed that he didn't come to some zen pacifism through his own means and experiences but was coaxed out of his "clear" insanity where he was a deranged killer that lost his mind due to losing his family, by none other than another very unbalanced person.

Rick/Morgan in terms of extremes can't be compared. Rick has never been extreme and has gone through far more than Morgan has, so has Carol.

Morgan lost wife and son? Rick lost his wife, Rick lost his best friend, Rick lost many of his new family and has been through hell in keeping them and himself alive.

Carol lost Sophia, Lizzie and Mika and struggles greatly with her maternal instinct, which is ever present underneath this hardened exterior.

Point is everybody has been through hell, Morgan's just extremely weak. Everybody else adapted in a very balanced way.

His pacifism stuff is fine if he's a loner, like Eastman was, where his pacifism is isolated and doesn't contribute to putting others with valueable assets that hostile people will want to kill them to take in danger. And as a loner he can even help people as he did with Aaron and Darryl and as Eastman did with him.

Within a group and not being upfront about his ways, he is an immense liability.

I want to make a thread about his interaction with the Wolf and how that relates to Crighton Dallas Wilton - pure evil and what that means going into EP 5.

 

I am not a active poster here at this forum but do read the insights into the meaning of episodes each and every week during the show. This is by far the best point about Morgan. I always thought he was completely insane, even Rick couldn't break him when they found him "Clearing" that town a few seasons ago.

If he is alone then it works, just like Eastman as you pointed out. That is why Eastman was able to survive the way he did "Not killing anyone" because he removed himself from the very society that would influence him to kill. Just think about what he did to take revenge of his family. 47 days of starvation! His entire world was around the plan to kill the evil murderer who killed his family. Then he just decides that it didn't feel right and he should confess peace?

Because he didn't surround himself with others he was completely able to make any decision of how he wanted to live. No consequence to anyone else. Morgan is completely crazy to believe he will be able to pull off the same mentality when all he is doing is putting every one around him in complete danger.

I think within a group, Morgan will be a liability, period. It doesn't matter if he is upfront about his ways. What is sad is that others in the group will still look after Morgan if he needs protection, even if it means killing a person. Would Morgan do that for others, nope!

 

No, now i'm even more annoyed. It is one thing to keep the peace, but STILL when someone is hacking at your friends with machetes, they've got to go! You can't change some people and look how it turned out for Eastman. No matter which path he chose he still ended up dead trying to protect and so there is no purpose, no matter which side you choose. You are only choosing peace for your own sanity and it really does not inevitably aid the bigger picture.

That wolf is going to get out. He is going to **** someone up. Morgan is going to have to snap out of it.

 

Very true on all points. Eastman survived on his own, once another came into the picture(Morgan), he didn't survive for very long. But he also desired to die... in a peaceful way, Eastman was miserable underneath his facade.

The Eastman way is one that is at it's core very selfish. Selfish for the reasons of maintaining a mental stability through a "positive delusion".

Keeping that delusion active takes precedence over doing what's right and why he's doing such insane things, putting others at risk. This is how many delusional people act in the real world.