Battle Royale Forums

Welcome to Battle Royale Forums. Join us today and become part of the growing group of survivors.

Did you change your mind about Morgan?

Discussion in 'Episode 604 - Here's Not Here' started by and138, Nov 1, 2015.

  1. Sachiko

    Sachiko Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2013
    Messages:
    1,246
    Likes Received:
    17
    So does honoring Eastman's legacy belong above other people's lives? Because why would you take down a ruthless murderer, right, in order to protect people under your protection? Where is the room for an "all life is precious" philosophy in a world where people hack innocents into pieces for their own entertainment, where human-beings have turned to deceiving other human-beings into being eaten, where kids grow up so ****ed up that they become dangerous? Disorders must become common in a world like that, I can imagine. And I can also imagine how he'd struggle with it. I definitely don't think he'll ever be completely "normal". And Eastman was of great impact in who he is today.

    Someone mentioned people like Rick only save themselves and their people and kill everyone else, but I don't agree with that either. I haven't often disagreed with Rick killing an outsider. He tries to take them in, he tries not to be in that situation where he has to pick their lives over others. If he had been going on a killing spree on every stranger, this would mean he's no better than the Wolves. This would also mean Father Gabriel wouldn't be there right now. It would mean he hadn't joined Abraham, Rosita and Eugene. Many more people who were ever with them would've died by his hands if that were true.

    It's true that Morgan has spent almost the entire ZA alone, if you think about it. I'm also guessing he wasn't really out there much, and I can say for sure that he hasn't seen the things Rick & Co have seen. He hasn't encountered any ****ed up minds who trick naive survivors into wanting to murder an entire group because this said person wanted what they had or rather, didn't want them to have what they had. Maybe this plays part in this, but I don't think it influences much.

    Eastman was, in a way, very special to Morgan. I perfectly understand why he would want to honor his legacy. However, if it's causing indirect deaths, in my opinion, it's time to put that aside for a bit. Maybe, considering the disorder, that's more difficult. While I struggle with two disorders myself, I don't have PTSD, so I wouldn't know how his mind works. That being said, I do understand viewers who dislike him now. I wouldn't want to kill if it's not necessary either. But the question is: was killing the Wolves not necessary? They attacked a community where almost everyone was incapable of protecting themselves. Morgan was one of the very few who could do that for them. Instead, he spends time tying up one of those killers and arguing about it with Carol. Carol wanted to get things done as fast as she could to save more lives. Carol knew that it wasn't an option to spare all their lives.

    Now, I'm not so salty about not killing the Alpha. If he had locked him up in a safe place, one where he definitely wouldn't be able to escape, I'd even pat him on the back for it. I'm sure in the next episodes they won't have time for these Wolves but the idea is good. Hadn't it been that shit was going to go down quickly, they could've even interrogated the guy, even though I don't believe they'd be much wiser by it. He doesn't strike me as a person who's going to be honest about anything other than that he's planning to kill everyone. But what I do hold against Morgan is letting those Wolves go, letting them grab a weapon, and leave. He could've known nothing good was going to come out of it. In fact, I think it's lucky it's Rick the Wolves ran into. I don't think there would be many people who'd be able to kill them all. They probably would've just killed more people if it hadn't been him.

    I think the episode was interesting, and it filled a few empty slots. I also don't want to say I dislike Morgan. I'm just disappointed where they are going with him, I hope this is not the end of his character development. But I get why people do dislike him. His wanting to honor Eastman's legacy is not really adjustable when you're together. It works when you're alone, maybe. It works when you're with the two of you, I guess, maybe three. But not in big groups - especially not if more than half of these people don't even know how to knife someone. I don't think he should've put that above saving them at all cost.
     
  2. Brother AJ

    Brother AJ New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2015
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    4
    Sorry, no offense, but you just don't get it. I say this to many of you that deride Morgan’s character. I grow so tired of the word "crazy" being thrown around so loosely since it's a pejorative slur commonly used to demean those with mental illnesses. Simply labeling those with mental illnesses as "crazy" simultaneously dehumanizes and groups all them under one umbrella term as if there were no variances or distinctions among these individuals. No one on this show or in our world is simply "crazy", but they do suffer from actual distinguishable diagnoses. Morgan, as well as most of the main cast I would say, specifically suffers from PTSD and likely clinical depression. PTSD, which often arises after severe traumatic events such as killing human beings, often surfaces and manifests as the following:


    • Recurrent, unwanted distressing memories of the traumatic event
    • Reliving the traumatic event as if it were happening again (flashbacks)
    • Upsetting dreams about the traumatic event
    • Severe emotional distress or physical reactions to something that reminds you of the event
    • Negative feelings about yourself or other people
    • Inability to experience positive emotions
    • Feeling emotionally numb
    • Lack of interest in activities you once enjoyed
    • Hopelessness about the future
    • Memory problems, including not remembering important aspects of the traumatic event
    • Difficulty maintaining close relationships
    • Irritability, angry outbursts or aggressive behavior
    • Always being on guard for danger
    • Overwhelming guilt or shame
    • Self-destructive behavior, such as drinking too much or driving too fast
    • Trouble concentrating
    • Trouble sleeping
    • Being easily startled or frightened

    http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/post-traumatic-stress-disorder/basics/symptoms/con-20022540


    All of which is likely intensified due to the adverse conditions of the ZA, having to kill humans more frequently than one would ever have to, and, in Morgan's case, solitude. It's extremely insensitive and outright incorrect of you to call someone that suffers from this illness "weak minded" or a "100% maniac killer." Considering what he has suffered through, Morgan shows immense strength and mental fortitude in simply wanting to continue to live never-mind wanting to preserve life aside from his own! He hasn't gone "zen" to "restrain himself" exactly either, but to prevent and lessen the symptoms of his severe illness in addition to him feeling that it's the correct and moral choice due to him once being an “irredeemable savage” himself. It is EXTREMELY unlikely that if he DID have to kill someone he would automatically revert back to the way he was before meeting Eastman, as he was in that horrid state most likely because his condition had worsened overtime.

    You’re definitely fooling yourself as well if you think Rick and Carol currently inhabit the “middle ground.” Putting aside the moral questions of whether certain murders were justified such as shooting the drunk father, gunning down the tied up Wolf prisoner, or killing people throughout the series in general the fact remains that the current EASE in which the main cast kills, especially Rick and Carol, indicates severe mental trauma. It’s simply unavoidable that this trauma will occur, and this is why Eastman understood that humans aren’t SUPPOSED to kill. Symptoms of PTSD such as emotional numbness have already been surfacing in the main cast, and it will likely only get worse from here. It is extremely likely if there is no attempt to reign themselves in, by perhaps killing less frequently or attempting to address and treat their mental imbalances, they will inhabit a state closely resembling the one Morgan was in CONVINCED that they must kill any perceived threat in order to survive.

    Well that is rather subjective isn’t it? You can’t tell me you KNOW that anything Morgan has experienced hasn’t come close to any of this especially when the degrees of such things are often determined by individual human perspectives. Arguably, Morgan has had it much worse than the others seeing as he lost EVERYTHING he ever cared about and was forced into solitude for quite a long time. As I said before, this is most likely why his case of PTSD was so severe before meeting Eastman.

    Well he’s not really a hypocrite if he no longer kills anyone now is he? It is certainly likely that Morgan’s position comes from a guilty conscience, but it also very much possible that he simply believes it is the right thing to do. And preaching? What preaching?! I’m just not seeing what all of you are apparently seeing! I count three times where he’s basically stated FACTS to Rick and Carol which include “We’re both killers Rick”, “Carol, you don’t have to kill people”, and “You don’t like it (killing).” If that’s considered “preaching” to you all you clearly haven’t witnessed very many religious sermons. It’s likely that Morgan understands that you can’t endlessly and vocally condemn everyone in order to bring them to your side, especially since he was a killer himself, as this certainly wasn’t how Eastman approached him. It’s rather ironic how often so many of you chastise Morgan for “preaching” or being “judgmental” by vocally condemning his philosophy and harpooning his character.

    ………..

    I also wanted to address two events that people seem to really get on Morgan’s case for. The first was letting the two Wolves live that ambushed him on the road which led to them finding the red pack which led to them attacking Alexandria. Okay… but how exactly was he supposed to know that they would be attacking a settlement he hadn’t even heard of yet?! If you want to be truthful, it was actually Aaron and Darryl leaving behind the red pack that probably led to the attack on Alexandria if it was not already being planned, especially since it could’ve just been different Wolves aside from Morgan’s who ended up finding it.

    The second was letting the group of Wolves leave alive during the attack on Alexandria. Many said that he could’ve killed them, but this is highly unlikely even if he used a gun given their numbers and positions around him. Also, given the ruthlessness in how the Wolves attacked, if he had not convinced that group to leave there would’ve very likely been FAR more casualties on Alexandria’s side at the end of the battle. I will give you that he perhaps should have better anticipated that they might try and steal a gun, but this was not something he let happen purposefully and they had already moved off too far for him to do anything about it. Morgan has yet to do anything purposefully in my eyes that has directly harmed the group. It remains to be seen whether his philosophy can benefit the group in the long run.
     
    #122 Brother AJ, Nov 6, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
    • Like Like x 1
  3. QuantumCurt

    QuantumCurt Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2015
    Messages:
    443
    Likes Received:
    13
    I've definitely gained a greater perspective of it. I still certainly can't say that I agree with it entirely, but I think to some degree it's still necessary. The fact that human lives do matter is an important part of survival in a ZA. Without numbers, people really can never win. But, this is a limited philosophy in practice and it'll only get you so far. The Wolves, for instance, are nothing but a threat. However, I think we're going to find out that Morgan made the right choice by not killing the Wolf that he captured. It's very possible that this Wolf could end up providing information that's going to lead them to finding and exterminating the rest of the Wolves. I'm picturing maybe a Rick(or maybe Carol)/Morgan good cop/bad cop interrogation scene.

    However, it's also possible that this Wolf will somehow get loose or otherwise cause big problems for the residents of Alexandria. Regardless, Morgans philosophy differs drastically from the philosophy of Rick or Carol. In some way, this clashing of ideas is going to result in a big plot point, whether for the good or for the bad. Sadly though, I have my doubts about Morgan making it out of this season alive. But we'll see. I'm looking forward to finding out what comes of his thinking and how it runs counter to the mindset needed to survive in this world.
     
  4. Benrai2k

    Benrai2k Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    21
    Sorry but you just don't get it. Morgan is a fictional character and doesn't really live with PTSD or mental illness. However my father did suffer with schizophrenia for most of his life and I saw the consequences of it. So while I can appreciate what yo're trying to say...Morgan aint real nor is his mental illness. So I really don't care about treading on eggshells over it.

    Morgan is simply annoying in the show, he was crazy and will gladly say so cause he isn't a real person. He killed people for the sheer sake of it, and hasn't been through any of what Rick did in the show. And no he hasn't been through a fraction of what the main group has, and we know because we've seen it on screen. Morgan lost his kid, wife....and? Most the other characters have lost their entire families too. Then he lived in a house, alone (his own choice at the time, Rick asked him twice to come with him at varying times). Then moved in with Eastman. He has seen nothing of the ZA.

    And yes he still seems like a total hypocrite to me.

    He is annoying and it isn't because he doesn't kill. Andrea was my favourite character and she never killed one person. I admired how she tried to avoid it. But she wasn't as stupidly blind as Morgan in the end cause even she realized the Gov as completely dangerous.She also didn't preach about not killing while having a list of murders under her belt, unlike Morgan. Also Morgan is definitely preaching - when you admonish someone in the middle of a blood bath for killing a barbarian hacking your community up, you are preaching.

    I can't go any deeper than that. Because it is ridiculous to psycho-analyze a character so deeply when the writer next episode could just change his personality, as they have with characters in the past on this show and others. If it was a real life case, I'd be less "insensitive".
     
    #124 Benrai2k, Nov 6, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
    • Like Like x 1
  5. westwingnut

    westwingnut Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2013
    Messages:
    9,535
    Likes Received:
    470
    I still think favorably of Morgan. He left the Wolf locked up in the Alexandria jail.

    On the other hand, he did not inform Carol that he had taken a prisoner. But we haven't seen him interact with anyone else yet. If he chooses to leave the others similarly uninformed, my opinion of him will change.
     
  6. swscully

    swscully Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    0
    No new perspective here. A man desperately trying to amend his evil will seek any refuge. I personally could care less about this character... As an occasional cameo, it'd be neat. But he in no way looks like an Akido expert. He looks like an actor trying to look like an akido expert, without first doing any real exercise.

    To the guy above getting all butt hurt about us calling Morgan crazy!? You CRAZY fool. lol. Its just a TV show.
    I definitely did NOT read all that. TL:DR. and nobody cares...
     
    #126 swscully, Nov 6, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
  7. elpack

    elpack New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2015
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0

    Yay! With all due respect to the overanalyzers out there - these CHARACTERS live in a very contrived fake not real made up set of circumstances. They exist solely within the realm of the writers and actors who PLAY them. Being offended at real-world descriptions that are used to describe CHARACTERS is silly. Ascribing their actions to what REAL people would or wouldn't do - senseless. Measuring the distance under a trash bin to see if a person could escape zombies in our world... ridiculous. On the other hand - discussing the actions within the realm of what the characters experience - totally different. Trying to guess what the writers will do next - fun. But it does seem like viewers forget that the characters only can experience that which is in THEIR WORLD.
    I'd have to ask (if I was comparing this to my world) - why can't they have enough clothes to always be cleanly dressed? There's all sorts of stores all around and they can pick up a few multi-packs of tank tops or t-shirts. They can go to former car dealers and get solar cars. They can find pallets of boxed canned foods. They can avoid slow moving walkers by walking faster..
    As far as Morgan goes - (in show) he is a total liability to everyone including himself. While it's nice to say all life is precious - threats are not. His not eliminating those threats make him an
     
  8. Brother AJ

    Brother AJ New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2015
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    4
    Okay... but your comments here do not exist in a vacuum. We are not isolated from the outside world on this forum, and so your words and the language you use here directly affect the REAL PEOPLE that are reading. As it stands now, your characterization of Morgan is extremely ableist (as in, it discriminates against the mentally disabled) in that you seemingly ignore or don't care how his illness has affected his character, and this is ridiculously problematic. MANY of those that suffer from mental illnesses/disabilities, this includes me, would tell you that your words here are hurtful and are all too familiar due to society also typically deeming us as merely "crazy", "dangerous", or a "burden" on all those who are "normal". Your ideas can easily help shape and/or reassure the beliefs of the status quo which buys into these extremely negative ideas about those with mental illnesses.

    We simply cannot accurately judge or determine Morgan's character whilst ignoring how mental illness and trauma has shaped who he is. Again, he DID NOT kill for the sheer sake of it, but because his tormented, grief-stricken, and trauma ridden brain convinced him he HAD to kill those people in order to survive.


    I didn't disagree that he hasn't been through what the main group has gone through! You simply can't tell me that you KNOW that what they experienced was WORSE than what Morgan experienced. Again, yes, the other characters lost their families, but they were never ALONE or without a support system which would comfort them and perhaps more importantly, keep them GROUNDED in reality. I'd say it's fairly valid to not want to walk into a war or a home that might not soon be there too. Your dismissal of Morgan's experiences is simply ridiculous! I'd say he's seen plenty of mayhem and murder, and certainly enough that would damage his brain thrice times over.

    Okay, but why is he a hypocrite?

    How is Morgan "stupidly blind?" Could you try to be more clear please? To admonish basically means to reprimand which would sound something like "You shouldn't do something like that because it's wrong!" He didn't tell her it was wrong, he said that it wasn't necessary, but this point is rather a minor one to me. You can't expect a character to ignore their morals even if they happen to be in an extreme situation. What good are morals anyway if you simply abandon them when things get tough?

    I work with what is in front me, and currently what is in front of me is that Morgan suffers from PTSD, much like the rest of the cast, which is a very serious and possibly debilitating illness.
     
    #128 Brother AJ, Nov 6, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
  9. Brother AJ

    Brother AJ New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2015
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    4
    Yea okay. Thanks for invalidating the sensitivities of and offense taken by others by saying it's "silly" to feel this way. Again "crazy", in addition to it basically erasing their ACTUAL medical diagnoses, is a common slur used to demean and DEHUMANIZE those with mental illnesses. Think of it as an "n-word" for the mentally ill and (hopefully) you'll understand.

    Make no mistake that writers are OFTEN attempting to emulate the real world with their work, otherwise we would never be able to identify with the characters or realize that they've gone through similar things that we have. Yes, certain details may be forgotten, but this show is ABSOLUTELY an attempt to show how real people would experience this scenario or environment. What would be entertaining if we can't even see ourselves in the shoes of any of these characters?! Morgan's behavior, as well as the behavior of many of the characters, just about PERFECTLY matched the symptoms of PTSD, but you're telling me that someone with PTSD would never actually act this way and that it's "senseless" to say otherwise?
     
    #129 Brother AJ, Nov 6, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
  10. Heriot of Fire

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2014
    Messages:
    696
    Likes Received:
    15
    I don't believe you

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Benrai2k

    Benrai2k Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    21
    They say "crazy" in the show. Write to the script writers. You'd have loved it here during S4 with "Crazy Clara" (who most were sympathetic towards, despite the name she was given by them).

    Also as mentioned, schizophrenia runs in my family. There is also a chance I have it, and have shown symptoms, as do my siblings. I am not offended by the word crazy. You are. I'm not here to be PC, if I took every homosexual slur or took every word like "crazy" to heart that I'd come across online I'd have probably killed myself about a decade ago.

    He is an hypocrite because he claims life is precious yet has murdered a bunch of people. Suddenly claiming it now life is precious does not negate that fact, and even if he never kills again, it still doesn't. He is a hypocrite.

    Again. Morgan was crazy in addition to suffering with PTSD. Deanna has it and I don't see her slaughtering any human she comes in contact with. In fact I find it insulting people only associate murder etc with mentally ill people. I have known and are aware of plenty of people who are mentally suffering and do not kill. Some people really are just evil. I don't think Morgan is, the showrunners have said he has PTSD. But it doesn't account for his every action.

    On screen I saw no reason why Morgan felt the need to clear society of all humans around him. I have more understanding of Rick's group, considering they've been bent over troughs seeing people be bled out like cattle. Going by what we saw on screen which is what we have to go on, and all we have, Morgan's gone through nothing compared to the group. I am sure events have caused him trauma, but to me, seeing what we have been allowed to see, he was crazy and isn't just based on PTSD.

    I don't really care how fictional Morgan's fictional case of PTSD influences him. I was going through so much trauma when my dad died I didn't ever shed a tear over his death and still haven't. Simply had severe nose bleeds. In fact I forget he is dead most of the time because my brain has shut it out and that was 6 years ago. People may think I am "crazy" to admit it on a public forum, but I am not ashamed. Even I think my body's response to my dad's death is a little crazy by normal standards. Doesn't bother me. I fight for mental issue understandings in my own way - first and foremost by being real about my own. So excuse me for not investing in an imaginary character's PTSD who is annoying me. Or finding a word such as "crazy" problematic. I've dealt with REAL mental issues in the family, and with myself. I'm personally more interested in Deanna and Sasha's fictional PTSD storylines, as I find Morgan's scenario to be ridiculous and tedious.
     
    #131 Benrai2k, Nov 6, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
  12. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Messages:
    880
    Likes Received:
    49
    If you aren't trolling, which your avatar and highly emotive responses indicate - although they are well written and I liked them, lol, then I don't see what you hope to accomplish as the Political Correctness guru here.

    As some have pointed out - we're arguing stuff as it pertains to the Apocalyptic Zombie world, not civilized society. The rules and judgements in such a cut throat idea are vastly different and compared to others Morgan is a weak mind and an extremist, needing a vice and a coping mechanism.

    I can appreciate the PTSD stuff, sure - no worries. But the PTSD upon his healing with Eastman has at the least taken a step back and his Eastman Aikido ways have assisted him in becoming level - nobody thinks that's bad.

    We think it's bad to not be adaptable and realistic when endangering a group with methods that don't work in this insane reality. Not being honest about the methods, so on...

    I'll address you stating that his letting the Wolves flee causing less casualties - no, no and no. He had the upper hand, knock them all out, then let someone with a gun come over and finish them off. No redeeming murderous psychopaths that were hacking up your people, then taunt you upon leaving and leave with a gun. He handled that all wrong. You can't defend that.
     
    #132 Ionut, Nov 6, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2015
  13. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Messages:
    880
    Likes Received:
    49
    Then keeping the Wolf next to the armory? Not being honest...

    I wouldn't care what mental ailment he has, we recognize that he's an extremist maniac and a liability. He's toast in my group if that happened.

    Exiled. Wouldn't kill him, but I'd send him back out by himself where he belongs.
     
  14. Berry

    Berry Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2015
    Messages:
    365
    Likes Received:
    4
    People like other people to behave in an expected manner. People don't feel comfortable when individuals behave in an unexpected manner. If an individual is making a person feel uncomfortable, the person will quickly categorize the individual.

    So. The town full of innocents is being hacked up. We know Morgan and like him. We expect him to help people. What does he do? He appears to be as nice to the hackers as the innocents. Unexpected behavior, negative public opinion.

    The word "crazy" is a generalized term that hasn't become universally accepted as a true insult. People use the term in everyday language, with no real harm intended. (You think this pizza is good? You're crazy! It's burnt!). Some clothing or wallpaper patterns are so difficult on the eyes, that I'd call them "crazy patterns".

    Just as it is difficult to look at some wallpaper, it's also difficult to watch a person that is behaving in unexpected ways. Writing "Clear" all over his walls, killing people just because of proximity, keeping a dangerous Wolf as a pet...

    Morgan is a fictional character displaying maladaptive behavior. We can hope he "gets better", but at the moment, he's nuttier than a fruitcake, and he is putting the other characters in danger.
     
  15. TGO

    TGO Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages:
    13,698
    Likes Received:
    178
    I actually decided that he's more of a hypocrite than I originally thought, especially after all of the ridiculous comparisons to Andrea and Dale. Poor Lennie James, his talents are being wasted here.
     
  16. Brother AJ

    Brother AJ New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2015
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    4
    Yes, and it is completely valid to call them on it too, but at least the writers seem to understand that there is more to explain about a character's actions than simply labeling them as "crazy" which basically tells us nothing. I'm sorry that you might have schizophrenia, but you don't speak for the many members of the mentally ill community that DO find this slur offensive and degrading. I don't care about being PC by the way, but I do care about being INCLUSIVE which basically means I want people of all kinds to be comfortable with my language and presence especially those that are part of marginalized groups (e.g. persons of color, LGBT individuals, the mentally and physically disabled, etc.), and they in turn would strive to do the same for me. No, you can't let every slur thrown around out there break you, but the fact remains that this world would be much easier to deal with if more people actually cared about being inclusive to others.

    So if I was a Christian that became an atheist I'm automatically a hypocritical atheist since there was a time that I once went to church and worshiped God?! You're basically robbing the word of having any real meaning. Hypocrisy specifically refers to one's PRESENTLY spouted ideas not matching up with how they actually behave. If Morgan said "all life is precious" and yet STILL murdered humans THEN he would be a "hypocrite."

    Dude, "crazy" doesn't mean jack shit. It explains nothing. It's certainly not a medical diagnosis. You say he was "crazy." OK? What does "crazy" mean exactly? Why do you think he became "crazy?" These are questions you didn't really bother to ask. "Oh, he's crazy, and that's all we need to say." SORRY, but that just doesn't cut it. However, what DOES likely explain his actions are the possession of mental illnesses and experiencing adverse suffering and trauma. If you looked at the symptoms of PTSD that I listed before you would realize that they seem to explain his “clear” behavior almost perfectly. Although, I never meant to imply that his PTSD was ALL that was affecting him, but I do consider it to be large factor. No one is saying that only the mentally ill murder people; in fact, having a mental illness makes you statistically much more likely to be a victim than a perpetrator. Morgan just HAPPENS to have PTSD while also murdering people, and it might even be a stretch to label what he did as "murder" since given his state of mind he likely didn't understand the full ramifications of his actions.

    There are also different levels of severity when it comes to mental illnesses, including PTSD, which may be intensified through environmental factors, duration, and constantly triggering it which explains the difference in Deanna's behavior. I think there are very few people that are truly "evil" when you consider how they're affected by suffering and trauma, mental illnesses, and even abnormally shaped brains which are things Eastman pointed out himself. In the real world this is also why the majority of violence is committed.

    You're are perfectly entitled to feel the way you feel about any given character, and I don't really care all too much to change your mind. I simply think you aren't giving an accurate portrayal of what shaped and motivated him, especially when you initially ignored his severe mental illness, and it's perfectly reasonable for me to question this on a discussion forum. I'm sorry to hear about your dad, and, yes, there is nothing shameful in sharing your honest reaction to his death. However, it is completely out of line for you to imply that the issues with slurs and disrespect toward the mentally ill aren't REAL issues. It may not matter to you, but it does to MANY others within the community. ALL of these things are valid concerns we should have, and simply because some see them as less important doesn't mean they don't need to be addressed.

    ..........

    Hey thanks, I put some thought into those posts. Heh... I'd love it if you could send me a copy of the Troll Identifier Handybook though as I’m sure I could benefit from giving it a glance. You just go straight to that eh? I joined this forum after watching “Here’s Not Here” which I very much enjoyed. I decided on this avatar because I enjoyed the depiction of aikido as well as the characterizations of Eastman and Morgan whom I sympathize with morally. It’s possible that my responses seem highly emotive to you because this is quite a personal discussion to me as well as a subject I take great interest in.

    My original intention was not actually to promote so-called “political correctness” as it almost never goes well. Certain posts on this thread rubbed me in an incredibly wrong way though, so I felt compelled to address the use of “crazy” as a common pejorative slur. Further, even putting aside “PC concerns”, I wished to address that “crazy” (as well as “nut”, “maniac”, “insane”, “bonkers”, etc. while we’re at it) is often a word used to basically write someone off without actually caring to address what makes them behave the way they behave which is exactly what Benrai was and now you are doing.

    The concept of political correctness is actually of very little interest to me. Although the interpretations of the term tend to vary, a constant seems to be that it means to basically respect the feelings and offenses of others because we feel we HAVE to do so. In my case, I actually WANT to show concern for the feelings and sensitivities of others because, to me, it’s all about being a better person. This is a concept known as “INCLUSIVENESS”, and it’s not exactly a conspiracy. Aside from merely caring for the feelings of others, there is the much more serious aspect of being aware of mental triggers as well as the oppression of marginalized groups. Certain words, language, depictions (slurs are a big one) can cause actual physical reactions in people such as having painful flashbacks, panic attacks, depression (which has been happening to me over the course of this discussion), etc. Further, many of these things help facilitate the oppression of marginalized groups (e.g. persons of color, LGBT individuals, women, those with mental and physical disabilities, etc.) by making them feel excluded, uncomfortable, and even less than a person.

    Unfortunately, most people don’t really give a **** about the feelings and oppression of others, and this is why I don’t usually bring it up. I’d say I’m just about done. If anything, it’s at least worth it to bring these issues up every once in awhile, but I just can’t always deal with the ****ing stress. I just want to talk about TWD, then again I’m not the one that started shitting on and rambling about “crazy” people in the first place. Obviously people have to learn to cope with all this nonsense, myself included, but it sure would be nice if so many people didn’t care about giving me less to cope with to begin with.

    If you’ve been reading my responses closely you would know that I’ve never said that I necessarily 100% agree with all of Morgan’s decisions, but I certainly do sympathize with, respect, and understand his motivations. Regardless of whether I agree with everything he does though, the characterizations of Morgan given in this thread are grossly inaccurate and inflammatory, and this is something important to me to address. No one said that it was “bad” that he was able to heal, but his PTSD was being flat out ignored or undervalued since it’s a “fictional” illness, which is actually an extremely important part of what motivates his actions. In addition, like I said earlier, to kill the Wolves would mean to him that he was never really deserving of the mercy given to him by Eastman, and was really just another dangerous “savage” or “psychopath” to be put down.

    Currently, in spite of his hardships, and while perhaps being a bit too idealistic and naïve, I would definitely say that the man has a good head on his shoulders as in he is clearly lucid, grounded in reality, and knows what path to take. You may not agree with his ambitions, but it’s clear that he understands exactly what he’s doing. You call him “weak minded”, and yet it actually takes much less strength to simply kill and treat others as expendable when able. A truly weak or at least passive mind just goes along with the crowd actually. Deciding to NOT kill dangerous humans and to even rehabilitate them is a TOUGH call that requires a lot of work that simply putting a bullet in his brain couldn’t match. Staying true to your morals even in the bleakest of situations obviously requires immense fortitude.

    No, this isn’t a civilized society, but another question we should be asking is when will it be? Don’t they want it to be? I respect Morgan immensely for at least aiming high in his ideals because nothing will change in this world unless THEY change first. Is Morgan aiming a bit too high though? Yes, that’s probably true, but to me it’s much better than to aim too low which I think the main group is now doing with their “take no chances” attitude. Is there a middle ground? It’s hard to say, but least Morgan draws a clear line in the sand while Rick’s line now appears to be blurry and distorted. It’s interesting to me for you to say outright that Morgan’s methods don’t work, but is that really true? Was having mercy and compassion for others never a good idea in this world? That seems rather debatable given the sparing of Nicholas (even though it was short lived), Morgan himself, Michonne (not giving her to the Governor), and even Carol when to do so was likely much more dangerous. Hell, a great example of said distorted line is how Carol is still walking around having murdered 2 defenseless people in cold blood (not counting the child which I recognize as severely complex), and the drunken father gets gunned down for killing someone on accident. Or why doesn’t Rick just shoot Ron, because isn’t it possible he may be coming after him next?

    Also, like I said before, even when putting aside the moral questions of whether certain murders were justified such as shooting the drunk father, gunning down the tied up Wolf prisoner, or killing people throughout the series in general the fact remains that the current EASE in which the main cast kills, especially Rick and Carol, indicates severe mental trauma. It’s simply unavoidable that this trauma will occur, and this is why Eastman understood that humans aren’t SUPPOSED to kill. Symptoms of PTSD such as emotional numbness have already been surfacing in the main cast, and it will likely only get worse from here. It is extremely likely if there is no attempt to reign themselves in or to draw a more clear and concise line, by perhaps killing less frequently or attempting to address and treat their mental imbalances, they will soon inhabit a state closely resembling the one Morgan was in CONVINCED that they must kill any perceived threat in order to survive. I would even say that Morgan is actually much more clear-headed than the likes of Carol and Rick right now as he clearly understands the danger of the trauma that is experienced from killing human beings.

    So you’re actually saying his actions DIDN’T spare lives? Are you even able to demonstrate this? And it’s certainly your opinion that he could’ve incapacitated those Wolves isn’t it? I suppose only Morgan knows whether he could’ve taken all of them on, but it’s hard for us to determine either way. To me, if he did know he could win, then he would’ve done so and taken them prisoner, but I could be wrong about that. He likely wanted to give them a chance to leave before he would take them prisoner like he did with the Alpha Wolf. The gun being taken was very unfortunate and not something Morgan intended, but the lack of defenses in Alexandria was very much to blame for that too. At that point they probably could’ve taken several guns from the bodies strewn everywhere if not the one right in front of Morgan. I’m also confused on what you’re saying Morgan isn’t being honest about? How is it that you’re even certain that he hasn’t told anyone about the Wolf prisoner or that he’s locked him up near the armory? That’s unlikely going to be a secret he can keep for long if so, and I wouldn’t agree with him doing that.

    ..........

    Note to self: If I want to treat someone like an innocent I should whack them in the head with a stick.

    Whether it is “universally” accepted as an insult is besides the point as it still IS an insult in many cases either against the general public or as a slur towards those with mental illnesses. It was even used as an insult in this VERY thread including “maniac” and “nut” which are also used to demean the mentally ill. Even if there’s no harm intended doesn’t matter either. Such casual usage of a common harmful slur is simply unacceptable, and do you not notice a common trend of this so called “harmless” language? “Gay”, “fa**ot”, “slut”, “bitch”, “****”, “retarded”, “idiot”, “lame”, “dumb”, “crazy”, “thug” etc. have all been assimilated into our everyday language and what do all of them have in common? They’re all derogatory words or slurs used against and to describe marginalized groups (LGBT individuals, women, persons of color, the mentally and physically disabled/ill), etc. that everyday people use to describe that which is LESSER or undesirable. THIS IS NOT AN ACCIDENT and it would be reaching to suggest otherwise. We can’t just ignore the history and meaning of these words when we use them. To not do so is incredibly irresponsible. People seem to understand this with the “n-word”, but supposedly it stops there?

    Morgan is actually quite lucid and grounded at this point, and he doesn’t do those first two things anymore. You’re saying he’s keeping a “pet?” Wat. OK then… Clearly that’s his intention.

    ……….

    Yea and I’m done playing this “political correctness” game with all of you. If you simply refuse to listen to those that are saying these words are hurtful and oppressive to us then what’s the point in continuing? I’ll opt out of addressing this subject for now, but if anyone has any questions about these issues they can feel free to PM me.
     
    #136 Brother AJ, Nov 8, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2015
  17. Benrai2k

    Benrai2k Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    21

    Actually I just said Morgan was acting crazy I didn't say he was crazy due to having a mental issue. Sorry you find crazy offensive...I don't and many others with mental issues don't. Can't please everyone. I'm one of those people who find medical and clinical terminology a lot more imposing and off-putting. I never said in my post I was writing a 100% assessment accurate pysch report. I didn't and don't need to explain everything in an informal, after-thought of an episode. I never said I was making a medical diagnosis, you just decided I was.

    "Crazy doesn't mean jack shit"...Good you realise this. So maybe stop twisting your knickers up over it.
    Also a nice definition for you: Crazy: mad, especially as manifested in wild or aggressive behavior. Morgan's behavior was aggressive and wild. He had become a crazy killer. A result of PTSD? Something else? No matter, cause that is how he was acting. Crazy. Crazy doesn't = mental illness. But for some reason people have decided it does. Which is stupid.

    You just decided to become all pretentious and come to a conclusion I asked no questions as to why or factor in his fictional case of PTSD. I am aware of his truama, but that doesn't mean the way he was acting in regards to his murders were not crazy in nature.After his initial fight with Eastman Morgan became subdued, aka not crazy. He was still suffering PTSD but was a lot more relaxed, aka not aggressive and wildly murdering. Good you noted that people with mental illness tend to be the victims more so than perpetrators. Therefore, why the hell did you decide I was saying he was a crazy killer simply due to suffering with PTSD? You basically put words in my mouth in your original post.


     
    #137 Benrai2k, Nov 8, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2015
  18. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2015
    Messages:
    880
    Likes Received:
    49
    @BrotherAJ -

    Your entire post there whether you want to divert it away from the fact or not - is a huge pro-political correctness diatribe that's strongly skewed from only one point of view. This is the mainstream in collectivist philosophy, politics and modern high education institutions, it's nothing special.

    Very well written, but going over much of the same stuff.

    I'll just that I don't disagree with inclusion, nor reasonable political correctness but dislike it when it goes to the extreme and has a culture of "protecting people" against seemingly offensive things that they instead should work through and harden up for. Such as if you are debating something I deem offensive, instead of you being censored as the western world likes to do now, I should instead have the right to counter act it and defeat it in civil form... or, you defeat me, and if I am right then I have defeated the offensive thing, if I am wrong then perhaps there are things about the offensive thing I should accept or take heed over.

    This is important for personal growth. Protectionism is not. In modern Colleges anything deemed remotely offensive is banned and thrown out the window and kids getting out of colleges often are too sheltered to even go ace a job interview and are extremely soft in the workplace, this is very negative.

    Likewise let's apply this to the Zombie Apocalypse. Society isn't coming back anytime soon, not the in the way it was ever again if a society of survivors rebounds and re-populates. That's all lost.

    Rick is definitely far more balanced than Morgan and Morgan for many reasons is of a far weaker mind as it stands right now. Perhaps the guy rebounds and that wont be the case, Rick may even melt down, we don't know, that's in the future, but as it stands right now all points are valid on that.

    There's no room for being soft and understanding of serious threats and liabilities when your existence is on the line, your group, your family.

    We're not talking about problematic people - the group even let Father Gabriel live, other groups would have killed him for what he did.

    We're talking about psycho murderous threats like the Wolves. Allowing them to stay alive is a suicidal philosophy in the world they live in.

    As for the other stuff, take heed of what I have said - toughening up is a great part of evolving and you shouldn't be so far in the inclusive protectionist stance when many people are simply incorrigible and dead weight.
     
  19. swscully

    swscully Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    0
    I want to meet the person who bothered to read this... TL:DR.
     
  20. Benrai2k

    Benrai2k Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2012
    Messages:
    1,594
    Likes Received:
    21
    I'm glad you didn't read it because it wasn't directed at you anyway. That post was directed at someone else, not you anyway. Feel free not to read if you can't handle more than 2 paragraphs. No skin off my nose. Any posts directed at you from here on out will be very minimal as not to fry your brain.
     
    #140 Benrai2k, Nov 9, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2015

Share This Page