Carol told Rick about Morgan's reluctance to kill the Wolves. Him running off to help Gabriel, tying up the Wolf, his saying "you don't have to kill them".

Rick is going to have a long discussion with Morgan about these events. Should be an interesting conversation, and we'll see whether Morgan comes clean at that point. (probably during the mid-season finale).

 

^ That conversation is one of the things I am looking forward to most.

Morgan's extremism to me is most evident in the Carter situation, Carter was bitten and certain to die and was screaming and threatening to pull the Walkers over to the group... Morgan giving dirty looks upon what choice did they have?

That's more telling than his allowing the Wolves to live. Imagine being so entrenched in some ideology that you can't even put down a suffering animal.

The conversation/conflict is going to be interesting.

 

Dead on balls accurate. All you (other person) have to do is go to school and pay attention, or to the nearest library to verify the above. Evolution has proved that adaptivity for survival is a constant for our species that's allowed us to be here today. It is perhaps the most natural of all human instinct and thus behavior.

Hint: We'd all be extinct if you were remotely right, about human nature being passive among a world of predators (animal kingdom). In a blink of the homo sapien timeline, we'd have never evolved, let alone to the point where humans like yourself sprang about, arguing against the very facts that allow you to exist today.

 

On the subject of social "inclusion". First of all how do we define that? Is "inclusion" equal social rights for all, or protection against anything that might be emotionally upsetting or offensive. The way that colleges are conducted today - providing a protection blanket over kids instead of teaching them to face their fears, things they find offensive and defeat them intellectually is doing them a grave disservice and stifling their evolution as a person.

This is what creates weaklings - coddling fears and insecurities. If something is wrong with me I like to have it pointed it. I don't mind being wrong because I want to always continue learning, the way that modern society and education handles that is to reassure me that it's all okay that I am fine even if I am wrong or needing to face myself - to seek help, whatever. Coddling glaring mental and personality flaws is a disservice.

To me "inclusion" ends at everyone having the maximum amount of rights to do whatever they want with their existence provided it does not infringe upon the same maximum amount of rights of others. That's it and beyond that if you want to be a weakling or a worthless cretin then criticism flying your way should be only natural under freedom of speech and expression.

Of course many can't handle it as it stands now, which is why this Alexandrian saga is the best of TWD so far.

Why is Carol the most interesting character in TWD? Because Carol is the personification of a formerly oppressed person that wakes up along the lines and "gets it". Carol went from abused housewife that was too shy to speak to super quick thinking tactical killer that's saved the group now twice.

Symbolism - You have nuthead Morgan trying to "tie up" problems, with Carol "executing problems" and there's no coincidence with that in the writing.

Society teaches you to tie up problems, to be insecure it's fine, to be this, to be that.... we're just "people", be "human"(meaning an emotional little bitch) - don't have any personal pride, don't be a high achiever and this is what is promoted.

Carol was an abused housewife in the societal model, upon being freed of those social construct constraints you see the results.

The contrary are the Alexandrian's and dummies like Eastman that have to hold onto outdated ways in the face of a new evolution ---

Take that symbolism to the bank and relate that to terror groups following Bronze Age religious beliefs fighting the same wars for millennia and idiots having the nerve and lack of understanding to post "terror has no religion".

Yes, it does not - but ignoramus scientifically/intellectually debunked oppressive 2000 year old nonsense has no place in an evolved world and should be annihilated from any form of respect.

 

Well actually, you could please everyone if you just didn’t use the word “crazy” at all. Unless you’re saying there are people that are actually bothered by the word NOT being used, but that sounds a tad ridiculous. I’m well aware of what crazy means, but your description of Morgan, as “a weak minded crazy killer who needs to be zen cause he has no bearing on how to be in the middle ground”, was absent of the proper context that is necessary to understand his actions. I thought your characterization of him was misguided, and I’ve already explained why this is the case. I’m sorry if it came off as pretentious, but said characterization was what I had a problem with more so than your use of the word “crazy.”

You give a lot of subjective opinions, but not much fact. Society will never return to the way it was before? Well, maybe not EXACTLY to the way it was before, but it certainly is possible that it could be close to what it once was. This is clearly what the characters desire at least, but it isn’t likely going to happen if they refuse to draw a clear and reasonable line in the sand dictating what is and is not acceptable to do. Rick has yet to do that. You say Morgan has the weaker mind of the two, but you don’t provide much evidence that demonstrates this. It’s certainly the case that you FEEL this is true, but that doesn’t make it correct. I already explained how one could interpret his actions to mean he actually has more strength than most, but you didn’t respond to this nor to most of the arguments made on behalf of Morgan’s character.

You further say that there’s no room for being soft and understanding when your existence is on the line, and that it is “suicidal” to allow “psycho murderous” people like the Wolves to live. I’ll assume that you’re not ignoring all of the times I listed that there WAS room for being considerate and understanding, and just are just speaking on this one instance relating to the Wolves. Well, Morgan once behaved in a way that many would also think of him as a “psycho murderer”, and yet there was room to and an opportunity to treat and rehabilitate him. He’s a walking contradiction of your contention here. I will also say that it isn’t exactly clear what the mental state is of ALL the Wolves, and that it’s very likely that there are many that aren’t quite as far gone as we think. As I said before, I would agree that Morgan is perhaps aiming a bit too high in his ideals, but I do respect his efforts and motivations.

Yea… none of this is accurate. He never inhabited a “Cult A” per se seeing as his “Clear” mentality was born out of his severely disturbed and traumatized mind rather than as an “ideology” he considered. And his so called “Cult B” has caused more deaths huh? LOL! Would you care to actually demonstrate who it is he’s gotten killed so far?

As I said before, it is likely that letting the Wolves go free preserved lives that day. Many said that he could’ve killed them, but this is highly unlikely even if he used a gun given their numbers and positions around him. Also, given the ruthlessness in how the Wolves attacked, if he had not convinced that group to leave there would’ve very likely been FAR more casualties on Alexandria’s side at the end of the battle. The gun being taken was very unfortunate and not something Morgan intended, but the lack of defenses in Alexandria was very much to blame for that too. At that point they probably could’ve taken several guns from the bodies strewn everywhere if not the one right in front of Morgan. Morgan has yet to do anything purposefully in my eyes that has directly harmed the group. It remains to be seen whether his philosophy can benefit the group in the long run.

It is also merely your belief that Morgan is “robotically following” Eastman’s “orders.” It is just as likely that he honestly grew to believe that Eastman’s philosophy was the correct path to take, and what likely helped him come to this conclusion was learning that killing other humans triggered his severe PTSD. It’s no mere personal preference of his, but actually something that helps maintain his mental well being and, furthermore, his grasp upon reality.

Yea, like I said before, all of you just don’t get it. I wonder how many of you would actually tell a war vet with PTSD to “toughen up” when they hear explosive noises that trigger their illness. I’m sure such advice helps them a great deal with physical reactions they can’t control, but I digress.

The majority of my posts have been on TWD rather than a “PC crusade”, and many people have responded to them and read them. So, it seems like the fact that you find my posts to be “unreadable” and “irrelevant” is really just your problem?

LOL! This exchange seriously reads to me like a conversation between two Social Darwinists. “The strong will survive while the weak will perish, and this is a good thing” right? Not like this has ever been shown to be a harmful and problematic ideology or anything. Further, your opinions on human evolution and nature are mega ****ing reductionist.

You’ll note that I put “pacifistic” in quotes because while Morgan and others represent varying degrees of the “non-violent” character trope they are not TRUE PACIFISTS, as in those that believe violence must never be used as a solution to anything even as a means of self-defense, which IS actually a very rare thing to see in popular media as well as human nature. But I was never discussing TRUE PACISFISM nor was I asserting that humans were never meant to even kill other animals. It may still be difficult to prove that humans were never meant to kill other humans, but there IS a large body of evidence that indicates that it’s never something that is supposed to come easy to us.

It’s funny that you mention the rest of the animal kingdom, because among MANY other animals it is actually very uncommon to kill within their own species because it’s obviously not very wise for their continued survival and evolution. Did humans get to where they are today due to their ability to survive and persevere? Of course, but it is arguably our development of the capacity for moral and intellectual reasoning and EMOTIONS, a notable one being empathy, that is mostly responsible for the life we live today.

Empathy in particular is arguably the reason we went from brutal nomadic survival to being able to form settlements in the first place as it develops the trust necessary to make up a cohesive society. Empathy is also a large part of the reason why to kill fellow humans can be so difficult and traumatic for us although not necessarily to the extent that we develop PTSD. Through this phenomena we have discovered that we can literally “see ourselves” within other humans, and you would be hard pressed to find evidence that this isn’t the case as empathy is even observable among human infants. Throughout history there have been efforts to bypass empathy such as dehumanizing enemy combatants and countries in order to more easily detach ourselves to kill or rally against them because they are “not like us”, but this is not something that happens without the proper conditioning. We should always find it suspect when someone kills with ease and without qualms as it is often an indication of a person who has been severely traumatized or is perhaps even a sociopath. It’s certainly not an accident that so many mass murderers and serial killers reportedly were unable to feel empathy for their victims.

There is a strong force that currently motivates Morgan, and that is most certainly his ability to feel empathy for his enemies. Many try and claim that this is a weakness of his, but in actuality it’s an integral and important part of being human and will continue to be as long as this group strives to rebuild society. Are his particular endeavors flawed? Perhaps, but they are most certainly not without merit. As I said before, I would not agree with Morgan hiding the fact that he took a Wolf prisoner, but I do understand why he would given that it’s unlikely that Rick would let him live. I also very much look forward to a discussion between the two.

 

"Fact" pertaining to a subject as subjective as interpretations of psychology involving characters in a fictional Universe that scientifically can't exist in the way it's displayed is going to be nothing but opinion. Depending on how existential you want to go - "Fact" itself is subjective.

I am saying things here that are consistently subjectively read misunderstood, but I think that the idea that society would not be coming back to anything like the way it used to be - no matter the direction it took - after something like a zombie apocalypse is a prediction of high accuracy. Society today does not resemble Society of 300 years ago and society 300 years from now won't resemble society of today. Throw a total global meltdown/halt due to reanimated corpses trying to eat anything living and a return to the survivors living a far more primal and brutal existence...

Society, if it reforms, is going to be quite different from the one we live in now.

Likewise where has Rick not set boundaries, shown moral standards of boundaries? Rick's had a lot on his plate and has only killed in self defense or necessity of situation and has put his life on the line for others many times, has openly helped others many times and has kept keep order and loyal bonds.

I have - you just don't want to accept it. The guy totally mentally melted down due to PTSD and came out of it via being coerced into a new line of thinking that he's stuck to even when highly irrational. Something almost everyone here see's as highly irrational but yourself.

Where as Rick's only lost his grip with sanity briefly once on the show and has been through WAY more than Morgan has to trigger PTSD and other issue's, not that he doesn't have issue's, everyone does. I can accept that the group was there for Rick, but the group also is a heavy burden for the man to have on his shoulders, unlike Morgan only having to care for himself.

Likewise consider that Rick found Morgan in "clear" mode and snapped him partly back to reality to have a conversation - offered the group - offered to help him - offered to reach him, was stabbed by Morgan prior to all of this. Morgan didn't take the offer for help, insisting that he must "clear", so it's not like Morgan was totally alone without a friend during the entire time.

You can put that spin job on anything. I work with logic, I don't work with emotionalism. I also don't think anybody is necessarily correct, I feel that I am partly correct here and I never am trying to play off that I am the sharpest tool in the shed because I am not, although most people in society are barely mentally coherent of the reality they live in - I feel that you have some good idea's, but I feel that you're overall very incorrect as to the Universe of TWD and that's why I am debating it.

I actually did many times over. I responded to it above and I posted that same basic concept maybe not in direct response to your post that time, but that's because your post was throwing that out as an angle that logic already would have debunked. Other people posted more detail on that subject than I did as well.

It's a subjective interpretation that's far weaker than my interpretation, backed up by far less logical example. Are we dealing with fact? No... of course not, but there's far more weight and evidence that Rick's stronger mentally than Morgan just by the fact that Rick isn't rolling around in some whacked out Dogma that's dysfunctional to the reality they live in and a carbon copy of someone elses ideology at that.

Yes, in the context of these people attacking you and slaughtering your community. In other situations it may be best to avoid them.

The Wolves are not redeemable, nor are Terminus. While we're at it Morgan isn't redeemable - he's a total lunatic, but I'll address that in the next points since you see him as a redeemed PTSD person and I see him as a psychopath that took on the persona of a different type of extremism.

Sure.

1. He's a different psycho murderer than the Wolves in his "clear" mania. Let's just agree he's on PTSD and lost it. The Wolves are different - they're not in and out of the throes of reality like Morgan was and the lead Wolf himself loves to try to logically and calmly explain their motives. The Wolves are functioning evil sociopaths and Morgan was a straight up dysfunctioning, uncontrolled lunatic. The Wolves are highly controlled, they are just bad, so no Morgan doesn't disprove anything about me saying the Wolves needed to be put down and are a waste of time trying to "reach". They are two distinctively different entities just like people in general are not all alike.

2. I don't find him redeemed. I can't say this enough times but the man is still an extremist and of a fragile mental state. He's calmer, he's not hostile anymore, but he's highly irrational and we may find out soon that he's mentally unstable because he's going through the motions that Eastman did with his pet Wolf and his pet Wolf isn't going to go for it. The Wolf's actions might dictate where his mind ends up. The fact that he's going through the motions with the Wolf after the Wolf trying to kill him twice and leading a brutal slaughter of his community while not telling his community that he has him locked up next the armory is not only insane - it is very deceitful and morally inept in the communal role.

You're going to argue it's not morally inept because the community would kill the Wolf, but he's keeping a very dangerous situation inside the walls while threats are abundant with a walker pile up outside the walls.

So again if you want to rationalize trying to redeem a mass murderer who has blatantly told you that he's going to kill you, kill everyone including the children at the "potential" expense of him escaping and killing more of your people JUST so he can save the said maniac from the community that was brutally sacked by the maniac's group....

Go ahead, but it's delusional.

Whether it was born or created from his traumatized experience - he inhabited an extreme mindset, ideology and exhibited lack of rational control and it was an ideology even with the lack of control because he had enough clarity to explain to Rick that he had to clear. He had enough clarity to explain to Eastman that he had to clear. Walker, human - they all end up reanimating - he has to clear.

How is this not inhabiting "cult A" in response to the reactionary pseudo-pacifism of "Aikido" - "cult B" - cloned copy of Eastman's ideology to the detail - another super unbalanced loner.

We've talked of indirectly. He has indirectly gotten a lot of people killed and lucky it hasn't been more - one prime example is him tying up a Wolf while other Wolves are out slashing and hacking his community and the other main example is him allowing the Wolves to live first go around meant that he allowed hostile evil people that attempted to kill him stay at large in the area, which they made their way to ASZ after finding Aaron's bag.

It likely will be more considering he's keeping Alpha Wolf under light constraint and not telling his allies.

No.

Review the scene - he subdued their and put them on their asses, he could have taken them all out and they aren't very adept fighters as is. Him taking the offensive to really hurt them and especially if he had a gun with him wouldn't have been much difficulty in killing them all.

Morgan for all his faults has good skills. The man can fight and the show has demonstrated he's rather good with his staff and firearms.

Lol... so letting them leave instead of killing them right there results in more casualties of ASZ people? All right..

No, he didn't intend it, but it happened via his moronic actions. It's kind of like Daryl in this latest episode - Daryl's attempt to recruit Dwight and Sherry was in good intentions but idiotic execution. he didn't mean to get his bike and crossbow stolen and seemingly screened them, but wrong time to try to recruit and NEVER give a weapon back to an unknown factor putting yourself as serious security risk.

I agree ASZ's bad security overall had a huge hand in it and at least Morgan was willing to go in there and fight... unlike ASZ'ers, the supreme delusional foul weaklings of TWD. It's just how he went about it and what he's done in allowing hostile threats to persist instead of taking care of them and doing the imperative thing in those moments - ideology aside.

It remain to be seen? It's been seen that his ideology has harmed the community, it's not up in the air - it's already there.

He even was repeating Eastman's line "I will not allow that" verbatim when threatened. He was trying to rehab Alpha Wolf. He's pretty much robotically going through the motions, the show has made that clear.

Killing humans didn't trigger his severe PTSD. Guilt over not taking out his zombified wife and her subsequently eating their son and then him having to put both down is what triggered it.

Again, Eastman's deal about "humans arent meant to kill" is scientifically off.

You don't get it and you're taking things way out of context and misinterpreting what I said about "toughening up" relating to society and emotional protectionism and the positive emotional state taking precedence over logic, fact and rationale.

If people are not instructed to face their problems, how can they fix them? That's what I was talking about in regards to toughening up, not people with serious mental illness, but just normal everyday 1st world problems and high emotionalism being coddled incessantly to the detraction of the person's development.

She finds them as such because of your skewed views to one side of the equation. Now, I don't find them unreadable or irrelevant, in fact I rather enjoy a good debate, but you also are misterpreting other people's responses and regurgitaing idea's in different spins and wording that are easily debunked.

 

I hate to remind that we're talking about most things in context of a TV about brutal surviving in the most brutal of realities.

There's going to be a bit of Survival of the Fittest going on and only the fittest are going to make it in a Zombie Apocalypse unless they've been in some kind of isolated bubble like ASZ, upon which reality shows up at the doorstep and the rules immediately start applying again.

As for comments pertaining to regular society and how some themes in the show cross relate, if you take it as appearing to be Social Darwinist then that's due to your perception because her, nor I are putting out a Social Darwinist rant. We are putting out a balanced and logical set of views though pertaining to both.

I am aware of that but you also are describing a variant of extreme pacifism. There's different levels of everything and Morgan is in the pacifist-realm of things and for the Zombie Apocalypse, he is our pacifist archetype at the moment.

Nature is a balance. It should never come easy to us to murder other humans, it should be extremely easy for us to kill in vital situations of self defense. Relate empathy to both the former and the latter. Wouldn't you say that social conditioning also has much to do with how things of a primal nature are mentally struggled with in civilized society?

Religious conditioning has had people mentally disturbed and feelings of serious guilt over the natural act of sex.

You can't tell me that cultural and societal conditioning play a huge role in how we develop, see reality and experience things. I would have to confidently predict that killing someone in self defense would be far heavier to a modern Western society individual than it would have certain other cultures and specifically back in time to earlier civilization.

So taking away that Western Society and letting all hell break loose in the apocalypse - I think people could kill very easily.

A subjective subject though. What is not subjective via science and evolutionary evidence is that an idea that "humans arent meant to kill" is nothing but subjective opinion, skewed at that towards moralist/humanist social construct.

It's a balance of many things. Yes it has to do with the capacity of empathy, loyalty, bonds with each other. It also has to do with darker sides of the equation as well. Civilization was not built solely from altruistic and communal principles, it was built because it benefited the individual's survival and quality of life more than nomadic.

Then the various the phases of civilization up until now were built by everything from intellectualism to straight up greed and lust for power driving some of our greatest leaps forward.

If we were just beings of empathy and emotions and did not also have a logical killer in us, we'd not have made it.

Try to see the other side of the coin on all of these issue's.

One factor of many factors and very important. It's not "the reason".

Right.

That's also reconditioning of a form of conditioning that comes through civilization.

Well, yeah.. in our civilized world. Even the people on our side that can kill with ease with no issue is a sociopath(even if killing bad guys), I think our characters in TWD are just in a different category and I think that vital self defense killing is also different, which is what our TWD characters are having to do in their daily lives.

This isn't a good thing... the Apocalypse isn't a good thing... their lives are not a good thing... this is just what theyve had to adapt to.

I don't think of Rick as a sociopath or a psychopath but I think of Morgan as mentally ill.

See, again, I don't think so because I find his current state as a mental facade and not genuine.

The others in the group do not feel empathy for others? Even Rick? He feels no empathy for people? Daryl?

They don't feel empathy for extreme homicidal sociopaths, no... but we also don't in our civilized society, well... most of us.

Addressed this already, but - If he's weighing the Wolf's life over the security of his people, he's in a very foul and one track minded mental state and we've said - he himself doesn't have to kill, but turn the Wolf over. The Wolf told Morgan point blank what his intentions are and he doesn't have an experienced raider/scavenger like him locked up very securely.

You stating that Morgan's ways are crucial for humanity in this state, that his ways are with merit despite of all of this logical example you've been given to the contrary and stating that you can understand why he'd keep a murderous sociopath that point blank SAID he was going to kill everybody if he got out because it's unlikely Rick would let the murderous sociopath live... AFTER they killed a bunch of their people...

Shows that you should really re-think some of this stuff and see the other side of the equation.

 

I was aware of Morgan's issue.

However I still find him weak-minded and he was acting crazy by definition of the word.

In the preview for ep 7 Morgan says he needs to live life by his zen code (and the implication is that without it, he will "go crazy" again). However can't be bothered to discuss it further.

 

^ Happy to see they will confirm the obvious.

Preview looks like it'll be a great episode, returning to our core group's character development and story.