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Discussion in 'Volume 21: All Out War - Part 2' started by jwcoombs, Mar 26, 2014.

  1. legendx66

    legendx66 Moderator
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    Getting stabbed with the guts directly is basically the same as a bite which is very different form just being covered in blood...
    Plus they clearly have the fever which when it kills them will cause them to turn. Remember the bite doesn't cause turning.
     
  2. clarky241

    clarky241 Member

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    Hahaha, #commentofthemonth, I agree. Wouldn't wanna know what Negan does to Dwight when all his wives are asleep.
     
  3. jwcoombs

    jwcoombs Well-Known Member

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    Technically; we never actually see Dwight contaminate the bolts. Not to mention Dwight's hostile bickering with Negan still contains hints of treason. But he is most likely playing both sides, using Rick for protection in battle, biding his time and waiting for the perfect moment to satisfy his vendetta against Negan, take Sherry back and hit the road. Who knows? But I do think it's pretty likely that regardless of his long-term plans; Dwight definitely wants to see Negan, his oppressor, dead and gone.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    For the record; I think Rick is fine. That being said, for me, the only thing that casts a remote shadow of doubt, is in the panel below. In the moment Rick is hit with the bolt; we see it protruding from his abdomen, and subsequently creating a stain on his t-shirt. It's the nature of the stain that seemed strange to me; obviously the darker spot in the immediate vicinity of the wound is Rick's blood. But what of the more opaque, dry/crusty looking spray of sorts around the active bleeding and trailing to his backside? Could be nothing; could just be Rick's blood, but a finer mist or spray or splatter that stained his shirt during the initial impact; and that's why its appears different from the active bleeding from the wound. I'm not sure, but this was really the only detail that made me raise an eyebrow.
    [​IMG]
     
    #63 jwcoombs, Apr 6, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  4. Agramer

    Agramer Well-Known Member

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    I also think Dwight didn't contaminate the bolts like the rest of Saviors did. And yes, he's waiting for the perfect moment, but when it's gonna happen? He could not betray Rick because he still wants Negan dead.
     
  5. HondaS2kXD

    HondaS2kXD Well-Known Member

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    I am very worried that Rick is going to die in 125. For four reasons.

    4. Not only the blood patterns you noted, here are also a few specs of something in the air-- as if some specs of zombie blood had come off as the arrow flew at Rick.

    3. I dont know where people are getting the idea that Rick is fine in 124. I could've sworn that after Rick says, "take care of him-- I'm not bleeding to death," the doctor says something about Rick running a fever-- it's as if he was bitten. But I might just be confused.

    2. Little things, like how kirkman said big things are in store for 125, and how Rick (and everyone else) isn't on the covers after 126.

    But the most worrying thing of all is:

    1. Issue 125 is 30 pages long. Much like, for example, issue 100.

    And i also agree with what you said a few pages ago. Carl is destined to kill negan. I liked what you said about negan regretting not jumping out the window on his own terms. In fact, I hope that remark plays a part in Negan's death scene. If I wrote it, the survivors would overwhelm the sanctuary in a charge for vengeance in memory of Rick. They slowly pick off each and every one of Negan's soldiers, leaving negan himself all alone. Realizing he's pissed on the hornets nest, he retreats to the room where he interrogated carl in 105&106. Carl opens the door and steps in. carl will have a brief but epic monologue about his dad, covering some of the things he has had to do to keep carl safe. He'll mention the "good people doing bad things speech," as well.
    If I wrote the speech, he'd say, "hello, coward. Look at you. Without your army, you are nothing. Certainly nothing compared to a truly great man, like my father. He once told me that to survive in this world, chances are we'll have to do some bad things, even if we are good people. And they can never become easy. Because when they become easy-- when we begin to enjoy doing the bad things-- that's when good people become bad people. My father had to do many bad things to protect me. Things I know he struggled with, but came to terms with in order to keep me safe. My father was a good man. A great man. I'm not so sure about myself. I have to do bad things sometimes, too. Many of them haunt me to this day-- even from years ago... But this, I am going to enjoy." A look of shock overcomes Negan, as he realizes what is about to happen. Carl smirks, and says, "remember the last time I was in this room? I told you to jump out of a window." Then he throws a Molotov cocktail on the floor between negan and the door. Carl watches, preferably singing you are my sunshine, as the heat overwhelms negan. Eventually, the heat forces negan to jump out the window-- where he lands in a herd of walkers that give him a fittingly bitter end.

    I would love if it happens like that. I don't feel death by Lucille is horrible enough for negan. He needs to be torn to shreds. And I love the irony of it. But however he dies, I hope it is at the hands of Carl.
     
    #65 HondaS2kXD, Apr 6, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  6. jwcoombs

    jwcoombs Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, you got a little mixed up there, lol, no worries. That bit about the fever,; was in reference to Nicholas. Who was injured long after Rick, but is already feeling the intense onset of the fever and will be dying/turning soon. Whereas Rick doesn't seem to be exhibiting any symptoms at all...yet. It's a real toss-up though, because some folks take days to succumb to the fever(Dale,Jim, etc.)

    Also, not only does the length of #125 worry me, but also issue #126, which marks the beginning of the next arc, is some 48 pages long; and nobody recognizes a single person on the cover(although there's a lot of Lilly Caul speculation). Yikes!

    Either way; even if we lose Rick(which I hope like hell we don't), Negan will still fall, and IMO it will most certainly be by Carl's hand. Especially if Rick dies; that will light a white-hot rage-filled fire inside of Carl. I'm glad you agree with my theory on Carl. A lot more people have come around to my whole "prophecy-fulfillment" with Carl and Negan. Where it's Carl's destiny to kill Negan, not only will he be the one to do, but he is the only one who can. Rick can't do it because he's from a different time, too pure of heart. However, Carl is a son of the apocalypse, birthed from the violence and desolation that has become their lives. Same with Negan, he is a monster created by the times. We know about Carl's thoughts, and his ruthlessness, and his reluctant pleasure and satisfaction from the violence. That's where him and Rick differ, and that's why it's going to require a post-apocalyptic hero(or anti-hero of sorts) to smite a hellacious post-apocalyptic evil. Carl has been, unknowingly, training and preparing for this pivotal moment his entire life.

    Either way; I'll be glad to see Negan dead(and somewhat sad as well; after all he is a very complex and intriguing character). But like you; I really hope they make his death a heaping helping of poetic justice.

    Maybe, after decimating Negans ranks, and making their final charge, Carl will round up Negan and Dwight(who will be blubbering and pleading for his life; desperately claiming how he is on Carl's side, but Carl won't care). He holds them in the same room Negan held Carl, and tells them to get on their knees. Carl then tells them that they're going to play a game; a game that Negan should remember well. Then, from behind his back, and to Negan's surprise, Carl reveal Lucille, still caked with zombie-venom. He then points the bat at Negan and begins to chant.."Eeny, meeny, miny, moe..."
     
    #66 jwcoombs, Apr 7, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2014
  7. clarky241

    clarky241 Member

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    Although I would hate to see Rick die in #126, I have a nasty feeling that might be what happens. But part of me thinks it won't be by Negan's hands, or from the contaminated weapons.

    I think it would be interesting to see a situation where Rick is killed in the crossfire of a battle, maybe even hit by someone from Hilltop or the Kingdom. And then that then fuels Carl with all this hate for Negan, who is then the one who finally puts him down. I don't know how it's going to end, but I do think that if Rick does die, Kirkman will have something a little more unexpected than him just being killed by Negan. I know he's got this philosophy that anyone can die at any time in the ZA and most of his deaths are spontaneous and random, just like they would be in reality, but I don't think he'll do that if he kills Rick. That would just be like a huge middle finger to his entire fanbase.

    Another thing I've been thinking about is (and this may be a hugely unpopular opinion so I apologise in advance) - how far can Rick's story actually go? Kirkman said a couple of years ago that he already knew what was going to happen in #200. That's over 70 issues away, and far, far away from All Out War. I just don't see Rick lasting as long as that and at the same time being able to develop new storylines for his character. It'd be cool to see him killed off in a landmark issue such as #200, but I just don't see what else Kirkman can produce for him to give him the longetivity to last that long. We've seen Rick's character go through so much development, and All Out War would be the perfect opportunity to end his reign; a war of epic proportions with an incredible antagonist. I can't see another story arc like AOW happening for a very, very long time, and I don't think it would be right to kill Rick off in an arc anything less formidable then the one we're in now.

    I think it might be his time.
     
  8. HondaS2kXD

    HondaS2kXD Well-Known Member

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    Cool. Cool. I was really confused about that. And when I look at it, it looks like he's talking to Rick as he's laying down. Idk. Well see. Like you said, for dramatic purposes, dale and Jim took days to show symptoms. Different people oftentimes react different ways to the same things.

    It's odd... I certainly don't "want" Rick to die. Despite having his moments, he is by far my 2nd favorite character... But I also feel like if they let plot armor save his life it would be such a cop-out. Even if the arrow he shot at Rick wasn't mucked, previous arrows would have left residue on the crossbow so that, in firing, the arrow would have been mucked anyways.

    Also, kirkman has promised Rick WILL die at some point, and I cannot think of a more fitting way than at the hands of the ultimate bad guy. But still in a way that lets him pass the torch of leadership in a really nice, emotional way. So, I'm torn... I would like to believe Rick will survive this story, but I cannot. So, I want him to live, but I also can't think of a better way for him to go out.

    And hell yes I agree with your theory on carl. People say they'd like to see Maggie or Dwight or somebody else kill negan, and that's fine from a, "he hurt us first, we should get to hurt him," standpoint... But I feel that it NEEDS to be carl. He becomes several times more badass every time we see him (kills two saviors, "so... When's lunch") and I feel this would be the ultimate way for him to become a true equal with his dad. Also, I feel that if it was Carl swinging the bat, it would sting that much more than anybody else.

    And, like you said, Rick and all of the other survivors are of a different mind, for a different time. Carl is like the Bane of this world: "you merely adopted the darkness. I was born in it. Molded by it." I think that's why carl is so awesome. He's the baddest of all the good guys. Like Han Solo and Martin Riggs. He's a good guy... But only just. And that is effing awesome.

    I agree Negan's death will be bittersweet: he NEEDS to die, but he is also a really great bad guy, and I can't imagine where the comics will go next.

    I like your idea for his death. Eeny meeny. Lol. Yeah, I've lost faith in Dwight now. Even if the arrow wasn't mucked, he shouldn't have risked it. He could have missed Rick and been like, "I told you the weight would mess with my aim." So, yeah. Carl can kill Dwight while he's at it. Prick killed Abraham, too. So if your scenario played out, ideally it would land on Dwight, so that not only does negan get to see what's about to happen to him, but maybe he says to negan just before he starts swinging, "sing me a song."
     
  9. jwcoombs

    jwcoombs Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'm with you; although I would absolutely hate to see Rick fall, it does seem to be one of the most appropriate times. But at the same time, I think he has more to accomplish, a little unfinished business per say. Carl is totally hardened, and has grown and evolved so much in his ruthless anti-hero badass-ery; and as we've discussed, he will undoubtedly be the one to strike Negan down. But, in the grand scheme of things, as far as "passing the torch" is considered; I think he just isn't quite there yet. He's got some very important lessons left to learn, and experiences to have; he needs guidance. Now, I'm sure some of these lessons will be learned when he finishes Negan; and I supposed one could argue that if Rick were to die, Carl might receive a sort of "crash course" in these important lessons through the trauma of losing his father and then exacting his vengeance on Negan. It is possible that such an event would be so mind-shattering and life-altering that it would harden him completely. Trading his blood for ice in the veins. It would be so traumatic, so defining, that he would all at once transform into a man ready to take the torch and sit the throne. Ah! I don't know what to think; I just really wanna think that he still very much needs his father's guidance for just s short while longer.

    Also, I keep forgetting that Negan made Carl sing to him. Man that was creepy! Carl demanding a song from Negan would be a perfection addition to the poetry of the "Eeny meeny.." idea! What do you suppose he would sing? Or would Carl chose for him, forcing him to sing "You Are My Sunshine"?

    Last but certainly not least; I abso-freaking-lutely love the Bane reference! I can tell that you completely understand what I'm getting at with whole "Carl--Son of the Apocalypse prophecy"!! Seriously; that Bane quote sums up my whole idea perfectly! The theme, the tone, the epic magnitude of the whole thing. Wow; spot on my friend! Bravo!

    I could even see Carl, in a war-torn, smoldering Sanctuary; searching for a cowering, quivering Negan in a pitch-black room in his top-floor penthouse, a dripping Lucille in-hand and he says--"Show yourself coward! You think darkness is your ally?". So. Epic.
     
  10. HondaS2kXD

    HondaS2kXD Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. We'll find out soon enough.

    I personally think this is too good a chance to waste. If negan isn't a worthy villain to bring Rick down, who could ever be? Some people suggest that Rick could one day sacrifice himself to save Carl. I disagree entirely. Carl would blame himself for his death if that happened. If you thought TV Carl's depression when he partially blamed himself for not being able to save his mother was bad, could you imagine if he held himself directly responsible for his father's death? He could never recover. And even if he did, it wouldn't be a hardened carl that emerged. It'd be a broken carl. A shell. Like season 3 rick. Nobody wants that.

    And, I really think watching Carl attempt to learn how to be a leader could actually make for some interesting issues. He seems to be already set up to be an EXCELLENT combat leader-- he's fearless under fire, and keeps his cool quite well. The most recent example being the way he shot the two saviors, then without missing a beat he was asking for help-- "I can't carry him alone." A good leader knows his weaknesses as well as his strengths. Carl is a damn good shot, but realizes he has some catching up to do in the physical strength department.

    I think he'll need to work on his peace time leadership. His only command cannot simply be "go on runs, kill zombies, repeat." So, post-negan, I think they'll really let him grieve Rick. Michonne and rick both talked to dead loves ones they had lost. Maybe carl will talk to dead Rick for a while. And maybe they'll give him a few emotional scenes with Michonne, Andrea, and Sophia. And it will add a lot to his humanity. When he eventually emerges, he'll still be a badass-- just a friendlier, more outgoing badass. Lol.

    On negan singing, I'm not sure. I think if they really want to make carl seem like a psychopath, they might have HIM sing as he beats negan to death. Lol. I think if he makes negan sing, you are my sunshine would make the most sense. Negan wouldn't pick that. He referenced classic rock when asking carl to sing. Maybe Tuesday's gone, but actually "Lucille's gone." Or maybe he'll sing some Taylor swift breakup song to Lucille: "weeeee are never, ever, ever getting back together." To which carl would remark, "you're gonna get back together alright," [WHACK!] lol. I still like the idea of a simple monologue then he kills Negan and Dwight. Done right, it could be absolutely epic.

    Thanks for the compliment on bane. Yeah, that's what I've always thought of carl. When you learn something from a young age, it is a more natural thing for you. I've been shooting since I was much younger than carl, for example. Four, to be exact. And the payoff is I'm one hell of a shot. I've driven go-karts since I was 11. Excellent driver. Carl has been living in the zombie apocalypse since he was seven. Has had to make many difficult choices, been tested and tried time and again. He's survived numerous close calls with zombies, rapists, and murderers. He's been hardened and trained for this world from the very beginning. But more importantly, he's also watched his dad and as such I think he has likely picked up a lot of leadership knowledge. He won't be a perfect leader from day one. He'll make mistakes and have regrets, no doubt about it. But I feel that the Ricktatorship will one day pale in comparison to Carlmunism.
     

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