Splitting is a psychological disorder.
Children have morals at the age of 3 already, babies have empathy at the age of 18 months already.
A child who can't differ between good or seemingly good is either too young, has not experienced "bad" behaviour in the person in question or is incapable due to whatever reason in the later childhood.
If a child had witnessed what Negan did they would not feel safe with him afterwards, depending on the age.

Eugene isn't a child and he is not stupid.
It can't even be Stockholm syndrome since he saw at least three times what Negan did to people, two friends of his among them.

 

Your post got me thinking. If Eugene does have an elaborate plan to kill Negan ,why give Sasha the poison? I would assume Eugenes plan isnt a suicide mission for him and that he thinks conditions will somehow get better after he kills Negan. Therefore, there could be an improvement in Sashas situation with even possibility of release/escape after Negans death. I too was hoping he had a plan but I cant imagine what it could be or what he figured the endgame would be. Also Eugene didnt give the poison to Negans wives when he figured they were going to poison Negan. That would have been a perfect chance.

 

Unless, could Eugene be cold enough to allow Sasha to off herself? In doing so, Eugene is helping do exactly what Sasha said - keep Negan from using her to harm the rest of the 'family'?? If Eugene has seen that she was already on a suicide mission, he could be protecting those outside by letting Sasha die (being that he believed her story). Maybe too twisted and deep, but a thought.

 

I for one do not believe Eugene has a secret grand plan to pretend to go along until - until what? He isn't going to kill Negan. He wouldn't even give the girls the pills because he knew if they failed, Negan would know who most likely made them.

It's too simplistic to call Eugene a coward. We all know his MO from the very beginning is to put himself with someone he believes can keep him safe. Negan has given him that as he has never had it before. In his ultra 'logical' mind he is going to give his allegiance to who can best protect him. Right now that is Negan. Everything he has done since Negan took him is completely in character for Eugene. Doesn't make him evil. Makes him all too human.

 

Yeah after he gave her that pill, I decided he doesn't have a plan. What a pity.

Also even if Eugene is playing nice to the saviors doesn't mean he wouldn't support Alexandria when the time came. He's just doing what it takes not to get tortured and killed.

 

We weren't talking about splitting in terms of distinguishing or be mistaken due to naivety (when falling in love, for example) but about editing out important parts of a person's personality up to a point of delusion.
Splitting a person or a group into only good and bad without anything inbetween is a psychological disorder in adults.

That was before the truth came out.
Ever since then, Eugene was genuine, helpful and even brave on some occasions, especially when he endangered himself by driving the truck when the Saviors blocked the roads and by admitting to Negan that he made the bullet. He did it to save Tara and was aware that he might be killed on the spot for that.
He also took on a walker alone and didn't want Abe's help.

Plus, it's a difference to do a stupid thing like delaying the mission due to being afraid that the truth might come out, and betraying his friends by working with and helping the very person who killed his friends and terrorises them, as well as himself, Negan's own group and others.

No, it doesn't. If ever, the show should have provided a change in his perception and attitude before he was kidnapped to let the viewers know that something changes in him.
The way it happened now the show disregarded his character progress completely.
Which is the reason why many still don't/can't believe that he has really accepted his new "leader".

As I said, it's not only about abandoning his friends or disregarding what's happening around him but about actively helping his arch enemy hurting his friends and innocents.
Had he just joined another leader whom he regards as being a better one, okay. Sad but credible.
But here he joined a group that brought nothing pain upon him and everyone else.
In order to do that he would have to completely and fully forget about what happened and about his despise for Negan and for what he did.
This is impossible for a sane person, especially for a softer character like Eugene.

By the way, this is what you wrote in a previous post:

"I personally doubt they are going in that direction with Eugene. I think in the end, as we move into and possibly beyond All Out War, they are going to aim for Eugene to ultimately remain a likable character. They will probably spin it in a way that tells us Eugene was playing it safe at the Sanctuary for awhile, and got caught up in the respect and power for awhile, but that when it comes time to him to make a real decision, he'll do the right thing. I think he'll be back with Rick's group, perhaps by mid S8 if not a lot sooner, after having done something heroic, and will remain in good standing with the group."

 

Eugene is likeable and can slither his way into any group or setting. He plays his cards well. Like others have said he is about self perserving. I don't think he has betrayed his friends. Eugene really doesn't have a choice. If he rebels then he can die, get someone else killed, or the iron. He doesn't know about Rick's plan. He is really not capable of escaping. He can't even really kill anything. He was treated really well for being taken and Sasha is being held in a small dark room. Eugene is still playing Negan and everyone else. That's what he does well. He did tell Sasha and Rosita to leave. Even though he had an oppurtunity to escape. He was crying and really scared. He couldn't just escape. That means he would be on the run and hiding. He would not be in Negan's good graces and that is a really bad thing. Plus he has probably overheard things about Daryl and his escape along what they do to the captured. Eugene doesn't want anyone hurt.

I think he thought he did the right thing. He knows that it won't be easy for Sasha and he thinks she wants the easy way out. He might be thinking that Negan will probably want her for a wife. The one wife with big lady nuts. lol! He knows Sasha and knows she will be miserable. It also shows that he is still her friend.

 

This defense machnism is a mental disorder. One falls back into the early childhood phase where the child was unable to fully comprehend and think beyond the black & white-pattern. And it doesn't matter if it's only temporarily or permanent or a repeating occurence for that matter.
It's a disorder that doesn't occure in mentally stable people.
You describe it as being the most normal reaction to shocking or unbearable situations, which is not.

The thing is, in this case Eugene is not just reverting back to old habits.
In order to do just that he would simply play the game and just pretend to "be Negan". Secret plan or not aside - everyone would immediately understand if Eugene would just be so scared and therefore revert back to old patterns of behaviour by simply playing the trustable new member.
No problem at all, I guess most people in real life would do that.

But what you have ignored in my previous post explaines that it's not about reverting back into old habits (given/in case that he has no secret plan but has switched sides). Let me paste and copy it here:


"As I said, it's not only about abandoning his friends or disregarding what's happening around him but about actively helping his arch enemy hurting his friends and innocents.
Had he just joined another leader whom he regards as being a better one, okay. Sad but credible.
But here he joined a group that brought nothing but pain upon him and everyone else.
In order to do that he would have to completely and fully forget about what happened and about his despise for Negan and for what he did.
This is impossible for a sane person, especially for a softer character like Eugene."

That's the difference.
This character twist is what makes it unbelievable, what takes away all credibility and doesn't fit his character at all.
Lying to others in order to get help is a whole different thing than joining your enemies and be willing to hurt your loved ones/family/friends/innocents.
Had he done it before, willingly harming others because Rick wanted it, without hesitation and despite Rick or Abe having done the most unimaginable and terrible things to his friends and to him - alright.
But that's not the case, that didn't happen and that is not the Eugene we have been introduced to.

Yes, it does. Because he was even willing to sacrifice himself which even most of the bravest people can't say about themselves. Such a thing doesn't change with a snap of a finger into actively helping a monster harming, torturing and killing others, let alone his friends.

No, it's not. If you stole an Iphone or a car or money or watever it doesn't mean that you would also kill somebody, help others torture your friend or start a war or whatever.
There are differences and there are tabus.
Lying to others doesn't mean to also backstab them. Eugene was a liar but he never was portrayed as a sneaky traitor, and that's the point.

What you've posted before would make Eugene a traitor on all sides.
I forgot to write that sentence when I quoted you.

 

Of course he did the right thing.....

I'm a huge Star Trek fan....

Lol


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I don't think Eugene intends on killing Negan; he knows that he'd fail at the attempt and would wind up being brutally killed. I'm not sure if he gave Sasha one pill or both - I'd have to go back and rewatch - but if he only gave her one, then that still leaves him with another. I suspect if he ever really intended on using one of those pills, it would be for himself. Eugene never gave the pills to the women who requested it because he recognized that they were lying to him...they had fed him a story that one of them was suicidal and wanted an 'out', so they asked for something that would help her. When Eugene realized that this was all an elaborate story he obviously didn't hand over the pills as they could have (a) been setting him up, or (b) their attempt to kill Negan would have failed and the pills would have been traced back to him. This would have meant instant death for Eugene.

One thing that briefly crossed my mind too, is whether the pill he gave to Sasha was, in fact, the poison pill that he originally made. While (again) most improbable, it's possible that the pill he gave her was something else...maybe he concocted a dose of something to cause Sasha to pass out or even come close to death, but not quite kill her. [However...even I don't really believe the writers would go that route, since Sonequa Martin is leaving the show anyway. So this is just an "out there" suggestion.] The most likely scenario is that Eugene was being truthful in that scene, and felt that Sasha was 'already gone' so gave her the opportunity for an out. He still sympathizes for everyone in his group, doesn't want any more suffering for anyone, but he's in a catch-22 situation. He can't escape, and he's too fearful to try. My one hope is that he will wind up inadvertently helping with Negan's downfall because of his newly-acquired knowledge of Negan's group (whatever he notices in his surroundings...he is very observant), as I don't want to see them kill off his character. It's just disappointing to see the writers revert him to a terrified, quivering mess - even though it does tend to portray real human behaviour - as they were beginning to show Eugene in a braver light. He was even almost growing "beachball-sized lady nuts" just prior to their capture by Negan.

Well, almost.

 

Eugene is loyal to Negan

King Negan has given Eugene's life a new meaning

Eugene finally will not be bullied and ridiculed

 

I used to love Eugene. The way he kind of grew and started being a somebody. Now he is just another Negan. A cowardly one at that.


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Eugene is a coward. He has never claimed to be anything else. ASZ , including but not limited to Abe and Rosita, mis-treated him terribly and failed to use his smarts. When he says he is a Neganite, free of fear for the first time in the ZA, he means it. He is not going to trade that for some loyalty to the dead Abe who saved him when he was running for his life; or Rosita who abused him, or for an ASZ who had no use for, or appreciation of him. The furthest he would go is to help Sasha kill herself and that is it.

It is a terrible waste, but Eugene is going to die -- likely at Negan's hands because he foolishly failed to understand there is no such thing as loyalty in Negan's world view.

 

I didn't say that.

But it's not just about him protecting himself. As I posted before, that would be understandable. Playing the sick little game as long as necessary in order to not get killed, sure.

It's about him (presumably or seemingly, time will tell) switching sides in terms of "being Negan" and accepting helping to harm and/or even kill his friends, hell, even having a good time being in charge.
That would make him one of the biggest selfisch a**holes being around in the ZA.
And in order to do that he would have indeed to forget about who Negan is and what he did to Abe, Glenn, the rest of his friends and all the other groups, plus Dr. Carson right in fron of his eyes.
He would have to remember that in order to keep his head down and to play safe. But not in order to betray his friends and harming them.
He proved that by telling Sasha,

"Being here means I'll never have to (be afraid) again."

This gives a clear view on his will to switch sides to the fullest (assuming that he doesn't have a secret plan), which is not credible for someone like him.
Sasha reminded him of Negan using her to hurt their friends, and Eugene is fully aware that he has already signed up to that.
This is not just playing safe, this is backstabbing and betraying his friends and/or innocents who suffer from Negan's terror.

He told Sasha that she has proven herself being honest, self-aware and brave and that he owes her.
Which means that he still has feelings for his old friends/companions and doesn't hold a grudge against them (and for what actually?)
Still he wants to help Negan against them, and this is active help

Being disappointed that he obviously is not planning on fighting Negan is one thing.
But just accepting that he has chosen Negan to be his new hero and by that going against his friends is another, and just unacceptable. I would expect that from someone like Dwight, for example, had things been different with him, but not from Eugene.

Making Eugene such a traitor and changing him from a soft character to a newborn fighter for the dark side would be like changing Negan from the monster he is into a kind and decent person who is passionate about helping those in need all of a sudden.

That would be self defense or the thought of self-defense. We're not talking about self-defense.
Eugene has nothing to fear from Rick.
He has to fear Negan and bowing to him in order to survive does not mean to fully accept what Negan does and to follow him willingly.

Staying by the above example of stealing cars, Eugene has not been described as the "thief who would also kill if necessary" but as the "thief who would rather hide and even turn himelf in in order to save others".

No, I'm not missing the point, just as described above.
There are different types of cowards. Those who are afraid of doing anything and those who opportunistically switch sides and even harm those who saved them before.
If ever, Eugene would rather belong to the first example of cowards. And I still can't see the credibility in his change from having evolved into a brave person who is there for his friends into a traitor who is ready to kill them.
Just no.