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Game of Thrones(SPOILERS)

Discussion in 'Television Shows' started by Killermolls, May 17, 2012.

  1. Jama

    Jama Well-Known Member

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    Great table setter episode. The look on Jaime's face when he saw Bran. Classic.
     
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  2. JEA13

    JEA13 Well-Known Member

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    Sansa should have kept Baelish alive and served the dragons little finger sandwiches.
     
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  3. PepperAnn

    PepperAnn Well-Known Member

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    Ahhhh I am going to miss Littlefinger. I completely forgot it was Arya who murdered him. Loved rewatching that yesterday.
     
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  4. southernlady

    southernlady Well-Known Member

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    I thought this was an interesting read.

    The Night King Is Definitely A Stark, And We Can Prove It


    Stephan Roget

    Game of Thrones fans are divided on whether or not the identity of the Night King is even a mystery that’s waiting to be solved. Some are convinced the chilly antagonist has a secret past waiting to be unveiled, and there are plenty of Night King fan theories out there to back that up. Others think that Night King legends are nothing more than world-building for the A Song of Ice and Fire book series, and that the character in the show is just a nameless, heartless zombie-making machine.

    There are merits to both schools of thought, but this is the world of George R. R. Martin, and he loves his dark reveals and plot twists. Of all the fan theories regarding the identity of the Night King, or the Night’s King as he’s known in the books, the most convincing all revolve around the leader of the White Walkers beginning life as a Stark. And you have to admit, a direct connection between the series’ main protagonists, including Bran, and its ultimate villain would be a very George R. R. Martin-esque twist.


    Who Is The Night King?

    The Night King appears to be the ultimate antagonist in Game of Thrones, an enemy more dangerous than Cersei Lannister, Euron Greyjoy, and Ramsay Bolton combined. Although little is known about the Night King, some basic information can be gleaned from his limited scenes. We know he's old, having been turned from human to White Walker by the Children of the Forest thousands of years ago, and he's now clearly the leader of the White Walkers.

    The Night King has the ability to transform human children into White Walkers, but it is unknown if this skill is unique to him, or shared by all White Walkers. He can also to raise dead humans and make them his servants, transforming them into an army of zombie-like wights. The Night King is also a master of the "come at me, bro" stare.

    Who Is The Night’s King In The Books?

    The story of the Night’s King is quite different in A Song of Ice and Fire, and not just because of the added apostrophe and letter. Bran recalls his education on the legendary character, who was said to be the 13th Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch. The Night's King was seduced by what sounds like a female Other, something yet to be seen in the series. She is described as having pale skin and blue eyes, which sounds exactly like a White Walker. As the stories go, when the two mated, she took his soul.

    The Night's King then became the tyrannical ruler of the Night’s Watch, declaring himself king with his frosty queen by his side. It took a coalition between the Starks of Winterfell and Joramun, a King-Beyond-The-Wall, to end the Night’s King’s dictatorship at the Wall. He was finally taken out after a 13-year reign. Afterwards, it was discovered that the Night's King and his queen had been sacrificing... something to the Others. It is unclear what exactly it was, however, as all records of his reign were destroyed. His true name has been forever forbidden.


    Are The Night King And The Night's King The Same Character?

    It seems unlikely that the Night King from Game of Thrones and the Night’s King from A Song of Ice and Fire are the exact same character. Although both come from the ancient past of Westeros, their origin stories are quite different.

    George R. R. Martin himself made it fairly clear the two were not the same character, writing on his LiveJournal:

    As for the Night's King (the form I prefer), in the books he is a legendary figure, akin to Lann the Clever and Brandon the Builder, and no more likely to have survived to the present day than they have.

    Perhaps the most likely answer is that the Night King in the show is an amalgam of two or more book characters, which would not be unprecedented. The Night King may be a combination of book-version the Night’s King and the first White Walker.

    Old Nan Knows Everything, And She Says So

    The Stark family caretaker, Old Nan, has a well-earned reputation among A Song of Ice and Fire fans for telling engaging children’s tales that turn out to be surprisingly accurate. She is the one who told Bran about the Night’s King, and she made herself pretty clear about that character’s family origins. Bran remembers her finishing the tale with:

    Some say he was a Bolton. Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.

    Just in case Bran wasn’t sufficiently creeped out, Old Nan added, “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.” Not really leaving anything to the imagination, there, Old Nan.

    There's A Symbolic Connection Between Starks And White Walkers

    The common denominator between the show and book versions of the Night King is the connection between Stark and White Walker. The symbolic connections are clear: the Starks are known as the Kings of Winter, and the Night King wears an icy crown. There also seems to be some sort of connection between the Night King and both Bran Stark and Jon Snow, given his habit of staring them down.

    Reddit user theDarkLordOfMordor thinks the connection, in both book and show, is quite direct. The books are filled with history of the Others, including information that their ranks are filled with Stark relatives. The Night’s King was said to be a Stark and to have sired children with an Other. There’s a strong possibility that Stark children have been turned into White Walkers, just like Craster’s were.


    The Brandon Stark Called 'Ice Eyes' Is A Clue

    There is one character in Westerosi history who just might be one of the fabled half-Stark, half-Others. A knight in the books, Ser Bartimus, tells Davos how White Harbor came to be a part of the North:

    The White Knife froze hard, and even the firth was icing up. The winds came howling from the north and drove them slavers inside to huddle round their fires, and whilst they warmed themselves the new king come down on them. Brandon Stark this was, Edrick Snowbeard’s great-grandson, him that men called Ice Eyes.

    The mention of Ice Eyes immediately makes one think of the White Walkers, with their icy blue eyes, and perhaps this particular Brandon Stark was a Stark of mixed White Walker heritage.

    The Stark Words Have A Deeper Meaning

    In the the first novel in the A Song of Ice and Fire series, Catelyn Stark ponders the Stark family words, “Winter Is Coming,” disturbed by them:

    The words gave her a chill, as they always did. The Stark words. Every noble house had its words. Family mottoes, touchstones, prayers of sorts, they boasted of honor and glory, promised loyalty and truth, swore faith and courage. All but the Starks. Winter is coming, said the Stark words. Not for the first time, she reflected on what a strange people these northerners were.

    An interesting observation: the Starks are the only family whose motto seems to have nothing to do with their actual family. But what if it does? If all, or most, of the White Walkers (including the Night King) are Starks, then “Winter Is Coming” would be a family motto of sorts.

    After all, the White Walkers do seem to bring the cold with them.

    Warging Might Have Created The White Walker Menace

    Reddit user HolyHerbert shared a fantastic theory about how the White Walkers became so powerful and independent. Originally, they were created by the Children of the Forest as a weapon to fight the First Men. The Children intended dragonglass as a failsafe against their creation, as the substance is used to both create and destroy White Walkers.

    However, HolyHerbert speculates the Children of the Forest screwed up. One human they transformed into a White Walker had warging abilities—and that guy became the Night King. Perhaps the ability to warg is what allows the Night King to raise dead people as wights, and this advantage is what caused the Children to lose control of their creation.

    Jon Snow’s 'Evil Name' Could Have Significance

    There’s an odd moment in the books when Jon Snow first meets Ygritte. He tells her his name, and she flinches and says, “An evil name.” Some think that she’s just referring to the fact that snow is cold, and thus not a very friendly name, but Reddit user Velvale has a different idea.

    They theorize that the Night King might have been a Stark bastard, too, and that his name might have been Jon Snow. This information could be common knowledge amongst the wildlings, but unknown south of the Wall.

    What’s Hiding In Winterfell’s Crypt?

    Winterfell has an enormous crypt, and there's got to be something interesting hidden in there. In the books, Jon Snow frequently dreams of returning there, which could be because his mother is buried inside. However, it could also be that the crypt is hiding information about the connection between White Walkers and Starks.

    Reddit user theDarkLordMordor thinks those secrets are buried deep. The crypt’s vault is described as cavernous, and there are said to be several other levels underneath it, some of which have partially collapsed. There is certainly a lot of history waiting to be uncovered down in those tombs.


    A Broken Promise Between The Kings Of Winter And White Walkers Could Be At The Root

    Reddit user c_forrester_throne has a pretty comprehensive theory about the origins and purpose of the Others, or White Walkers, and it includes some possible connections to the Starks. The Long Night ended not in the defeat of the White Walkers, but rather in a pact between White Walker and humanity, most likely represented by the Starks.

    This is why the White Walkers are now suddenly active, after centuries of dormancy: some aspect of that pact has been broken. It could be that wildling populations north of the Wall keep growing, or that the Night’s Watch has grown too weak. It could be related to the Night’s Watch not staying on their side of the Wall, as the Others didn't really attack in earnest until Jeor Mormont led the Night’s Watch on their great ranging.

    There Must Always Be A Stark In Winterfell Could Represent A Family Pact

    The White Walkers and Starks may have been able to forge a peace because of certain family ties. Reddit user c_forrester_throne notes that the strong evidence for Stark bloodlines in the White Walker ranks would have made an agreement between the two sides much more likely. In this theory, a Stark diplomat, most likely the legendary "Last Hero," ventured into Other territory to meet with them and make a pact.

    This pact may have something to do with the saying “There must always be a Stark in Winterfell.” If this was a promise, it was kept for generations—until Theon Greyjoy and Ramsay Bolton broke the streak. Coincidentally, this was around the time the White Walker advance started in earnest.


    The White Walkers Might Be Seeking Revenge For The Starks

    One of the possibilities proposed by Reddit user c_forrester_throne is a bit simpler than any ancient pact or broken peace treaty. It could be that the White Walkers, ancestors of and relatives to the Starks, are active once again because their family is in danger.

    After centuries of sparse reports, White Walkers started appearing again some number of decades before the events of Game of Thrones, perhaps in direct response to the murder of Rickard and Brandon Stark, Ned's father and brother. The White Walker activity could have intensified in recent years because of all the awful things the Starks have been through, such as Ned’s death or Sansa’s everything.

    The Night’s King in A Song of Ice and Fire and the Night King in Game of Thrones appear to have a curious connection around the number 13, as pointed out by Reddit user FourOneFourTwoOne. The Night’s King is the 13th Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, and his cruel reign lasts for 13 years.

    The first time the Night King is on screen in Game of Thrones, he is accompanied by 12 other White Walkers, for a total of 13. This seems like it must be an intentional nod at a connection between the two.

    The Last Hero Could Be The Link

    There is plenty of reason to believe the Last Hero of legend (kind of like a Northern Azor Ahai) was a Stark. Reddit user FourOneFourTwoOnesees a link between that character and the similarly legendary Night’s King. The number 13 is heavily involved. The Last Hero is said to have gone north of the Wall with 12 companions in an effort to end the Long Night and the conflict with the Others. The story ends in ambiguous fashion, including involvement with the Children.

    This particular clue also aligns the Last Hero with the Night King in Game of Thrones, who is first seen accompanied by 12 fellow White Walkers. Given that Jon Snow just went north of the Wall with six important companions, and at least five no-name red shirts, there’s an obvious parallel between Jon and the Last Hero, and that could strengthen a connection between Jon and the Night King—perhaps a blood connection. That link could be the key to ending the upcoming War for the Dawn.

    Could The Night King Be Bran Stark?

    Some Game of Thrones theorists have taken things to the next level and speculated the Night King is not just a Stark, but specifically Bran Stark. Reddit user hi_austin thinks that Bran’s time-traveling abilities, which caused Hodor to, well, Hodor, are going to play a major role in the series’ endgame.

    Bran may feel the need to travel back in time and stop the creation of the White Walkers. Perhaps he will warg into the first incarnation himself, but screw up and find his mind trapped within the Night King. Bran is already a little off, so it wouldn’t be a stretch for him to completely lose his humanity in the following centuries, and become the series’ main antagonist. This would mean that, like Hodor, Bran’s time travel was simply closing off a loop in time. Like in True Detective, time may be a flat circle in Westeros.
     
    #6784 southernlady, Apr 15, 2019 at 1:18 PM
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019 at 1:30 PM
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  5. southernlady

    southernlady Well-Known Member

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    I thought the episode was great aside from the Aladin type scene where Jon and Daenerys rode the dragons to the waterfall. While I thought the scenery itself was beautiful, I could have done without that part. I def didn't see what happened to little Ned Umber coming.
     
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  6. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Sam’s reaction to the news of his father and brother’s death actually surprised me. Dad sent him to the Wall to be rid of him, and would have arranged an accidental death for him if he had refused to go. We never had any indication that he was particularly close to his younger brother.

    Some shock and perhaps some sadness but to go crying from the room was a bit much. He’s not naive. He knows how it works. When the conquering monarch gives you the choice of pardon by bending the knee and you refuse you’ve actually chosen death.
     
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  7. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    While I enjoyed the various reunions, I don’t think that there will necessarily be one for Lyanna Mormont and Jorah. Look at the age difference. I don’t believe she has ever met Jorah. He was exiled many years before her birth and all she may know of him is that he was exiled as a traitor to the North by Ned Stark* and she might feel he besmirched the honor of her family house. If anything, she might take a swipe at him with her sword, lol.

    I also,think you’re right about Sansa. While she certainly gained an education of sorts with all her trials and tribulations she’s not in the same league as some of the other characters. I also wondered if she and Tyrion would have more to say to one another. Technically, they’re still man and wife, right?

    I really would have enjoyed seeing Ghost finding his way back to Winterfell. I wonder if we’ll ever see him again.

    *Actually, Ned would have executed him for the crime of being a slaver, something he resorted to to keep his then current wife in the style to which she wanted to be accustomed. He fled so he became an exile. Robert Baratheon offered him a pardon for his spying on Danny, but he had become enamoured by her at that point and refused to return to Westeros.
     
    #6787 purriwinkle, Apr 15, 2019 at 1:59 PM
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019 at 5:38 PM
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  8. JEA13

    JEA13 Well-Known Member

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    Where the heck is ghost? I cant remember the last time I saw him on show.
     
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  9. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Huh. Ya know, I can’t remember myself really. I don’t think we saw him killed, did we? There’s a chance he might show up.
     
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  10. JEA13

    JEA13 Well-Known Member

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    I've seen several people on you tube who have brought up resemblance the spiral pattern made by the White walkers using body parts of humans and even horses (3 episodes I can remember) to the spiral pattern Targaryan dragon symbol makes. I dont know if they are on to something or mere coincidence . I have a T shirt with the dragons and it does appear spirallike. In this episode it was the scene with the Umber boy hanging surrounded by arms. The other scenes were early seasons so perhaps something George Martin told them?
     
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  11. TDogResurrected

    TDogResurrected Active Member

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    The white walkers handled the umbers/last hearth really quickly. I wonder how long the Karstarks will be able to hold out. Probably about the same. The Norths strength/men have been dying in the war of the 5 kings, and in the battle of the bastards (mainly bolton/umber/karstark men Jon was fighting against). AFTER the Karstarks, I wonder where the night king will go next... SOO PUMPED
     
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  12. JEA13

    JEA13 Well-Known Member

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    I may be wrong but didnt the Karstarks already come to Winterfell? I thought the banners were all called to come to Winterfell. The Glovers refused. The Umbers couldnt all get there because they didnt have enough horses and wagons.
     
    #6792 JEA13, Apr 15, 2019 at 2:53 PM
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019 at 3:01 PM
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  13. TDogResurrected

    TDogResurrected Active Member

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    I think you may be right. Either way, I wonder how long the Glovers at deepwood motte will hold out. Ganna be sweet to see and zombie/reanimated dothraki or unsullied.
     
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  14. Jama

    Jama Well-Known Member

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    That spiral galaxy of human arms or whatever it was, was insane!!!
     
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  15. X-HUNTER

    X-HUNTER Active Member

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    Sansa pointing out his stupidity for trusting Cersei was an "ouch" moment, but it only shows his lack of sound judgement when it comes to his family, think of how all his strategic plans fell flat, yes folks his family is his weakness. One of the things that struck me is the northerners open dislike and distrust at anything foreign, this brings me back to Rob and him marrying a foreigner which was his downfall, but nevertheless, I am glad Jon is no longer king, not because of all his excuses of needing allies and all, but of a statement by someone in a previous season and that is, "kings do not fare well. " Better to step down and live to fight another day.

    On another note, it is an awkard moment for Jaime seeing Bran across the court. Can't wait for next week on this.

    I like this episode it was all about reveals and reunions and apart from the Umber boy, there was no other bloodshed, yet in the meantime, the chessboard is being set for the next battle to come and I am sure the NK will make his move next week.
     
    #6795 X-HUNTER, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:14 PM
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2019 at 4:50 PM
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  16. PepperAnn

    PepperAnn Well-Known Member

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    I just rewatched and missed how funny everyone reacted to the dragons. Lmao

    I was too busy paying attention to the dragons. Lol
     
  17. BlackBird

    BlackBird Member

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    Thanks for posting all the Night King theories, @southernlady. Very interesting.
    Can't wait to get the show's explanation of this obvious connection both Bran and Jon (all Starks) have with him.

    I enjoyed the episode so much. Just to be back in this world is everything.

    Favourite bits:

    Arya/Jon reunion. Perfect. So beautifully affectionate, yet Arya is no child any more. I liked how she firmly reminded Jon to remember his family loyalties and not to be blinded by his love for Danny. This is so interesting because everyone can see that Jon is obviously smitten with her, but actually, he's also seeing a bigger picture than Arya and Sansa, and all the northerners. And right now, his ultimate desire to defend not just the Norht but all the living, sits very well with working with Danny and her vast army. If it requires "bending the knee", who bloody cares right now, with the army of the dead marching their way. Well, the proud northerners do. They won't understand until they finally get to meet the real enemy but by then it will be too late.

    I like all theories that suggest the iron throne will be destroyed, and there will be no more Kings and Queens. Breaking the Wheel in earnest. And I believe Danny will realise that she doesn't need a crown. (To answer Sam's big question at the end.) They will need strong councils.

    Sam telling Jon about his parentage and asking the big questions, pointing out how Danny can be ruthless whilst Jon is merciful... my second favourite scene.
    Chilling. Great acting on both sides, superbly written dialogue.

    Sansa/Danny bitching scenes - priceless.

    Things I didn't like:

    Must agree with all of you on Tyrion. He's not been doing that great lately. He needs to get his wits and mojo back. I'm not sure why he's written this way right now, but I have faith in the writers of building him up again.

    I wasn't keen on the dragon joy ride either, it just didn't seem the time and the place with all these hostilities back at Winterfell and when all their efforts should go into the war preparations. Perhaps this should have happened before they got to Winterfell. The scene itself reminded me so much of Harry Potter and co. on their broomsticks, that once I had that image in my mind, I had to giggle through the whole dragon stuff. I did enjoy the "I'm watching you, Mister" facial expression of Drogo though, it was hilarious.

    I was also a bit disappointed with Arya's other reunions. Too harsh with the Hound, just didn't have that extra layer I was hoping for; and too cold and matter of fact with Gendry, but then she did a little flirty thing with him at the end which made it better. I would like to see this warm friendship fully restored, even if they don't become romantically involved.

    The ending of the episode was so chilling, with the latest art work from the Night King and of course *the stare* between Bran and Jaime. Loved it.

    Can't wait for next week!
     
    #6797 BlackBird, Apr 16, 2019 at 3:48 AM
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019 at 5:54 AM
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  18. BlackBird

    BlackBird Member

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    Oh, and I find it hilarious how Cersei kept moaning about the lack of elephants.
     
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  19. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    The difference with Olly though is that he didn't actually kill the people who were responsible for the death of his family, but the guy who saved them from the army of the dead. If Sam did go that route I don't see it as him doing it on vengeance but for the best interests of the realm. Bran is also somewhat directing him now, sending him down to tell Jon the truth of his parentage. If they go that route in the story I'd see if as Bran telling him Dany is bad for the realm and Sam would feel justified due to what happened to his brother.

    Speaking of Bran he came the closest to showing emotion when he greeted Jon. It was almost a smile, but the most we've seen of him so far. He also seems to trust very few people, and his interactions going forward will be interesting.
     
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  20. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it's so damn frustrating with Sansa that I laughed out loud with that line. She's worried about what to feed the army as if everyone is magically going to survive an attack from the army of dead and their biggest concern in a few days will be food.
     
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