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Game of Thrones(SPOILERS)

Discussion in 'Television Shows' started by Killermolls, May 17, 2012.

  1. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    The neverending delay on Winds of Winter worries me because I feel he's lost the creative energy for Song of Ice and Fire. My two biggest concerns are:

    • Seeing the characters he created played by real life actors has skewed his approach because he now sees them not in his mind's eye, but Emilia as Dany, Kit as Jon etc
    • Maybe his writing style or emphasis has changed. I really enjoyed Fire and Blood but it reads more like a history book where he doesn't need to get the characters perfectly done. Some of it is based on rumor, mystery, Mushroom's accounts etc. It also fits more into the screenplay style approach that he's going to be doing with his 5 year contract.
    After all these years I think he's just not extremely happy with what he's created for Winds, or it would've been done by now. He said the pandemic was great for completing it, but yet here we are a year later and no end date in sight.

    This quote from his blog in February is telling and I think it shows he's not pleased with the content:

    "I wrote hundreds and hundreds of pages of THE WINDS OF WINTER in 2020. The best year I’ve had on WOW since I began it. Why? I don’t know. Maybe the isolation. Or maybe I just got on a roll. Sometimes I do get on a roll.

    I need to keep rolling, though. I still have hundreds of more pages to write to bring the novel to a satisfactory conclusion."

    Hundreds and hundreds of pages would mean we have thousands after all these years. So he's either writing, scrapping most of it and rewriting again, or it means (from the one optimistic angle) that some of this is "A Dream of Spring" content.

    I hope it's the latter, but I fear it's not.
     
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  2. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Those are interesting observations. You could be right that seeing the show played out on the screen messed with his creative muse if you will. Although they say he doesn’t care what his “fans” think, I don’t believe he’s totally immune to the public’s response to the show. It may have changed his plot trajectory and he either wasn’t happy, as you suggest, or certain aspects were no longer coming together which has proved frustrating. OR like you say, he’s trying to complete both books which obviously is a daunting task considering the scope of tying up all his complicated story lines but gains more time with the new deal and keeps his audience placated by keeping them enmeshed in Westeros.

    By holding on to his manuscript he can then release them, as we’ve discussed before, as half books to keep us on the hook for more and to keep him relevant. That could backfire however. It could get to the point people no longer care.
     
    #8222 purriwinkle, Mar 30, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
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  3. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure his publisher is even more aggravated than his readers at this stage. You know they had to suggest half books at some point too. I could see him pushing back on that because some of what he's working on now, might change what he's written before, and he wants the final product set.

    I've begun reading the "Dragonbone Chair" by Tad Williams. It's the "Memory, Sorrow and Thorn" trilogy that Martin said inspired him to write A Song of Ice and Fire. Some people who've read the series say it's changed their outlook on Martin a bit. They feel he's taken a lot from this trilogy. I'm just about 70 pages in. No real similarities yet. The throne is huge and made of dragonbone, similar to the one made of swords in Martin's series. No big deal there for me in terms of "stealing" content.

    I don't find his writing as compelling yet either, but if the novel is decent enough I'll finish the series.
     
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  4. X-HUNTER

    X-HUNTER Well-Known Member

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    I do not care what GRMM says, the vast negative outcry of the GOTs finale must have had an impact on his writing as well as his psyche. He is probably trying out other endings, but the damage is already done. GRRM should have never allowed the TV series to overtake his books, as it is, the show has stolen the magic from his future ice and fire releases, and many fans are still reeling from the bitter taste the finale have left in their mouths.
     
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  5. Jama

    Jama Well-Known Member

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    That ending was so horribly executed. It really puts a stain on GRRM's legacy and the expectations of any future books mixed, assuming he finishes them. He's kind of in a no win situation. If he finishes these books sooner rather than later, is the bad taste of what happened with the show's ending going to negatively influence readers? I believe it will.

    Alternatively, if he finishes those books (sooner or later) and he knocks it out of the park with the plot, ties up loose ends and repairs the story if you will, then that's good. I guess. But then I'll really REALLY want a series reboot that incorporates the better ending, and I don't see that happening in the near future if at all.
     
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  6. southernlady

    southernlady Well-Known Member

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  7. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    The show was so great in those early years. I disagreed with some of D&D's choices, but the quality was strong through 4 seasons. It became wobby with the Dorne plot in Season 5 going off the rails.

    In retrospect I wish they had simply ended it with Season 6, Jon becomes King, Cersei is Queen and Dany is on her way to Westeros. They could've said the story would be picked up down the line when (yes lol) Martin finished the books. It could've given them at least some time to consider an ending while picking up other stories from Martin's universe. It would've worked for D&D too because they'd still have their reputations intact.
     
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  8. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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  9. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I wanted them to start from the beginning too. They'll begin a year or two before the Dance I believe.

    As for the casting, from a visual perspective only, I like the choices for Rhaenyra and the Hightowers. Not excited about Lord Corlys or Daemon. Hopefully their acting wins me over.
     
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  10. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Graham McTavish has been cast in House of the Dragon, but no word on what role he's going to play. I'm thinking maybe Borros Baratheon or Cregan Stark?

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    I hope it’s Cregan Stark cause he sided with the Blacks. Borrows was a drunken, traitorous bastard who tacitly allowed an envoy to be murdered, while not technically under his roof, on his property.

    Either part could probably be a juicy one depending on the writing. Graham was in Outlander and he can play a nuanced bastard really well. I’m excited for whatever character they cast him as.
     
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  12. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    I'm with the Blacks over the Greens too. How do you feel about Matt Smith getting such a central role as Daemon? He's the casting decision that bothers me the most. It's a role that seems better fit for a Travis Fimmel type. Nikolaj Coster Waldau would've been perfect too if he hadn't played Jaime in the original series.

    In the set photo you posted earlier the actress for Rhaenyra looks perfect and Smith just feels so out of place standing next to her. He doesn't have the screen presence you need for Daemon.
     
  13. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    That’s a tough question. I’ve not seen a lot of Matt Smith but wasn’t he one of the Dr. Who’s? I never tuned in to The Crown although he was Emmy nominated for his portrayal of Prince Philip.

    I agree the role of Daemon Targaryen is really loaded. Travis Fimmel would have been dynamite but we’ll have to see how it goes. I tried to find another pic to show more but could only find these:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    .

    My only reservation is does he look old enough to be her uncle? In the pics, she looks a bit older than he but those shots could be deceiving. He might surprise us all with his portrayal. I’m really interested in who they’ll cast as Harwin “Breakbones” Strong who was said to be the real father of Rhaenyra’s first three sons while married to the Sea Snake’s gay son. That will be interesting.
     
    #8233 purriwinkle, May 21, 2021
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
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  14. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I didn't watch the series but he was Dr. Who.

    There are two parts for it for me, one is he doesn't look the part. Smith looks like a weak Viserys type. Then there is the age factor that you mentioned. He doesn't appear as if he could be her uncle. Like I said in a post awhile back maybe his acting can win me over, but it's higher bar to clear for him now. Visually I already accept Rhaenyra. It feels like perfect casting there, like it was for the Hightowers.

    What bothers me too is that his role is so key in the story that a lot rides on his ability to convince us that he's Daemon, unless they're changing the character in some way.
     
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  15. BlackBird

    BlackBird Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting discussion above! I haven't read the books, so can't comment on the casting, but I can say with full conviction that Matt Smith is a fantastic actor. He was an awesome Doctor in my view and a brilliant Prince Philip. He's got a full range of skills and I think he can do just about anything.

    I can only recommend the Crown, an excellent series. Historically quite creative, but I think they've managed to convey some of the essence of what life is like for the Royal family. Matt Smith as Prince Philip was certainly a highlight.
     
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  16. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    That's what I'm holding out hope for, that Matt Smith's acting will win me over. Visually it doesn't work for me because Daemon is a more physically imposing, rough edged character.

    It's kind of like the poor casting choice of Euron on the original Game of Thrones series. That was one of their worst decisions. Euron is extremely evil and formidable in the books. Then D&D cast someone who made it seem like a Pirates of the Caribbean style role.

    Obviously Matt Smith is much more talented and D&D are gone. So while I'm skeptical of the choice, I'm hoping it works out. This character also is central to the series so as Matt Smith goes, so will The House of the Dragon.
     
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  17. BlackBird

    BlackBird Well-Known Member

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    Oh Euron! He was like a comic relief!:D
    I guess he wasn't meant to be. o_O
     
    #8237 BlackBird, Jun 23, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2021
  18. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Prior to the final season meltdown my two biggest complaints were Euron and the Dorne plot. Both would've been great if they'd followed the books. And it's not a case of D&D not having the material, like in later years. You would've really enjoyed all of the intricate things going on in Dorne. But that turned out to be a farce too with the Sand Snakes.
     
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  19. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    I agree that Dorne contributed so much more to the plot than was ever gotten into on the show. It’ll continue to be important if/when the books are released.

    As far as miscasting goes, I also thought Iwan Rheon as Ramsay Bolton wasn’t right.....physically or in delving into the evil that was Roose’s bastard.

    Let’s hope Matt can convey the essence of Daemon that does justice to the text.
     
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  20. BlackBird

    BlackBird Well-Known Member

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    It's interesting to me how much can transpire of weaknesses even without reading the books prior. Because I too felt that the Euron character lacked gravitas and that the Dorne plot was just plain silly.

    However, I'm still reeling from all the scenes with Ramsey. I thought that actor did a phenomenal job of portraying a character evil to his core. I could barely handle his presence on screen. There were times I felt like that with Negan in TWD back in the day when he was nothing but an unpredictable evil f**k, but the worst for me was Tobias Menzies as Randall on Outlander. After Season1 I simply couldn't return to the show, because I wasn't able to handle that level of evil and depravity portrayed to such perfection. Seriously, that performance has left such deep scars that watching the actor as the older Prince Philip in the Crown was completely unsettling for me. (And so wished they just let Matt Smith carry on in the role aged up. Ha! Full circle!)

    It's so weird, how now years on the end of the GoT tv series still feels such a terribly sore point. The "it was only a tv show" doesn't work at all to soothe things. It could have been a most amazing piece of art. Instead the last minute they let some vandals graffiti all over it.
     
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