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Great First Episode

Discussion in 'Episode 801 - Mercy' started by Terminator, Oct 22, 2017.

  1. Apollonia

    Apollonia Well-Known Member

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    I agree with everything you said and deleted most of your quote save and except the last paragraph because on this one, I have to say that this year its worse then ever with the constant whiners and complainers who all believe they could have done a better job. I really do think that what was played out in this episode is a ladder rung to the bigger picture. And I will bet my last dollar that not one of the complainers are going to come back and say "Ooohhhh, THATS why they did that". I guess some people want everything in black and white and to be played out all at once. I love suspense and enjoy the slow build. Which is what i agree this episode was.

    I want to know this. Just what was "unbelievable". That they would shoot out windows? Maybe the glass raining down on all the inhabitants INSIDE, like @Dnae said, would have the shit scared out of them and look to their leaders who, oh WAIT!!! are cowering hiding and not doing anything. Yes, that would make me want to follow them more. Everything shown in that episode was precise, timed, coordinated etc.. How difficult is it to surmise that its leading to something bigger? And as for unbelievable? I agree. Those damn walkers dont look real at ALL!
    A
     
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  2. Weallgotit

    Weallgotit Well-Known Member

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    That's my biggest issue as well. Of course we know Negan will not die. But don't write a scene for Negan to basically offer himself up openly to Rick to be shot after Rick promised to kill him twice. And then not even have Rick or anyone else shoot him. Then when they do shoot they only hit the wall. But I think Negan was grazed by one bullet. Mmmm. I'm not one to complain a lot about TWD but they gotta get better as the season goes on.
     
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  3. EZD

    EZD Well-Known Member

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    I guess it is too complicated to understand somehow but this is it again......

    If the commander is stupid enough to stick his head out in public and you do not blow it off right then ,you have not done your soldiers job,plain and simple.

    There is nothing complicated about this,it does not violate any well timed master plan at all it is the entire point of your attack in the first place and the end game if you can see it.

    Everything else is just frosting,if Negan dies the walls come a tumblin'down.

    I am not berating the entire show,I am still watching and this is the first episode of the season so we have hardly soiled the entire thing insisting this is a huge plot hole but this is a pretty significant stupid scenario we are faced with accepting and it is too stupid and lame for me to accept.

    This is a comic filmed for TV so it is what it is clearly and maybe this is not the ideal spot to pint this all out but it seems disingenuous to ask e to accept that this made any sense..

    Disagree if you need to ,it does not effect my breathing.
     
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  4. Jen7

    Jen7 Well-Known Member

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    That wasn’t their plan...they were trying to get people to surrender first. When that didn’t work they went to the next phase of their plan.
     
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  5. Blueman

    Blueman Well-Known Member

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    I think the sneaky attempt for Rick to take out Negan is when he was counting from 1 to 10, he actually opened fire when he counted to 6 or 7, IIRC.
     
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  6. ShaneFan

    ShaneFan Well-Known Member

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    I felt mixed about the episode. There were things I liked and disliked...

    1. I liked that Alexandria, The Hilltop, and The Kingdom are working together.

    2. I liked how much Father Gabriel has evolved as a character, and even his interactions with Rick show a mutual respect for each other. I felt bad that Gregory used Father Gabriel's kindness against him.

    3. Great to see Jesus stick up for Maggie.

    4. I liked seeing Simon push off Gregory. Hahaha!

    5. I liked how Daryl and Dixon worked together.

    What I didn't like...

    -I get that they were drawing the walkers to the Sanctuary. At the same time, what a waste of bullets.

    -While I'm intrigued about "Old Man Rick" and why they showed him looking teary eyed after--this has me wondering what's going to unfold--at times the skipping around was confusing.

    -I wish I could say the premiere made me feel something...but it didn't. I actually liked S7 premiere more. It was brutal, but it made me feel sadness for the brutal deaths of Glenn and Abraham and RIck's helplessness through it all. I didn't feel much of anything, and at the same time, I'm willing to watch it a 2nd time--I may see it in a different way.
     
  7. EZD

    EZD Well-Known Member

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    Understood,but if the leader is stupid enough to expose himself anyway then you take the shot,there is no other choice here!

    The is the part I can not grasp.

    Lucille his ass and talk about it all later!
     
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  8. 190

    190 New Member

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    We all know that in real life that would be the ideal choice,but we have to put everything that happens on the show in to context. What would the show be like if they killed Neegan in the first episode of the new season? Probably pretty boring after that. Also think about how long it's taken to kill the other villains we've seen. The Governor and Shane among others. Neegan has caused much more pain and sorrow than all of them combined,so they'll most likely drag out the end game with him, plus would you really like to see him shot? I think that's to humane for him he deserves a lot worse, don't you agree?

    Sent from my Z981 using Tapatalk
     
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  9. Dnae

    Dnae Well-Known Member

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  10. EZD

    EZD Well-Known Member

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    Of course I agree but him showing himself in the open was written in the script too!!!!!!!

    The entire deal of that scene including its conception is stupid dont you agree?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  11. 190

    190 New Member

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    Yes I agree, it was very unrealistic!

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  12. ShaneFan

    ShaneFan Well-Known Member

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    Shane's not a villain. Flawed, yes. Evil, no. He was a thorn on Rick's side, yes, because he slept with Lori, and the whole "lure him out to kill him" deal, but it's important to remember that Shane was Rick's best friend at one time, and he's one of the main reasons Rick grew into man and survivor he needed to be in order to take on villains like The Governor and Negan.

    And I agree that killing Negan in the first episode would be pointless and result in a boring season. It's a war, and wars are never so easily resolved just like that. While many argue that if Rick had killed The Governor when they had that one-to-one meeting, whose to say that The Governor's cronies like Martinez wouldn't try to avenge him? And Negan has tons of men and women at his beck and call...so taking down the leader doesn't automatically mean the followers will fall in line just like that.
     
  13. 190

    190 New Member

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    I agree about Shane not being a villain, sorry about that. He was a badass character and I did like him. It would've been awesome to see how he would go about all of the situations the group has been through since him demise.

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  14. ShaneFan

    ShaneFan Well-Known Member

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    Don't mind me, I'm the resident "ShaneFan" here, and I'm biased. ;) You don't have to apologize--Shane is a polarizing character and is viewed in many different ways. He was badass in his own way and I wished he would've lived long enough to face Negan. I That would've been great. Sometimes I wish Robert Kirkman would make an alternate TWD What-If? comic series for scenarios like you mentioned: WWSWD? - What Would Shane Walsh Do?
     
  15. 190

    190 New Member

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    That's a great idea, I think if he did that it would garner a following of it's own.

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  16. ShaneFan

    ShaneFan Well-Known Member

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    I think so, too. I wish he would consider it. There are so many what-ifs that would be great to explore.
     
  17. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Putting aside for a moment,the debate over the wisdom of the tactics used, I thought there were some nice moments. One was the interaction between Michonne and Carl after the others had left to face Negan. I loved that she offered her support in defending their home but made it clear that this was his responsibility and she was confident he could do the job. Very nice. I also liked that Carl left the canned food and a written apology for the guy who Rick chased off with his gun. I was also touched when Rick told Maggie he was going to follow her after the war.

    It was the little things like these that pushed the episode into the plus column for me. Personally I would have been happy if Rick or someone else would have sniped Negan then and there but I realize for the sake of drama we'll have to suffer him a bit longer.
     
  18. jiggeryqua

    jiggeryqua Active Member

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    You're both wrong. Note, I didn't say "I think you're both wrong", because it's not even open to debate. Nor is it anything to do with it being a TV series - it's written that way because (despite the presence of entirely fictional zombies) they aim for realism.

    Let me explain why you're wrong, in case you missed the previous explanations I posted:

    Imagine you just shot Negan - and you managed a killshot, because you're, like, super awesome or whatever the kids say these days. Next thing that happens is that all the Saviors rain down holy hell on you and the pregnant lady and all your farmer friends. When the few survivors of your foolish assassination mission limp off to regroup and bind their wounds, one of the Negans becomes the Negan (Simon, probably - he's very ready to be in charge, don't you think). So Simon-Negan and the horde of Neganites descend on Hilltop, and the Kingdom, and Alexandria, where they enact some horrible punishment (you can probably think of a few, without even having to use the example Ocean View gave us of what happens when you stand against Negan - only in that example Negan lived. This punishment will be worse, for everyone).

    Now imagine that 'solve a complicated problem with one bullet' shot didn't actually kill Negan...

    Finished? Now imagine that Rick and the wiser minds he surrounds himself with have thought this thing through (you could try thinking it through yourself). They need to take all power away from the Saviors - and that does not happen by removing Negan. Ideally, it happens by demonstrating to those that serve Negan that time has run out on that game - there's a new sheriff in town. (Let's go back to your plan for a moment, and imagine the episode where Rick rolls up, shoots Negan and demands the surrender of the Saviors. It's not a fairy tale - Negan hasn't cast a spell on them which will be dispelled when he dies. They chose to be part of that operation, and like any gangsters from the Mafia to the Crips and anything inbetween, one or more of them is already planning a takeover.)

    If these points haven't addressed your specific concerns, please do elaborate and I'll address any other mistaken ideas you have.
     
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  19. Terminator

    Terminator Well-Known Member

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    No. You're off base here. Negan is the head of the snake. Without him there might be infighting to see who takes charge, but in the meantime Rick's group still goes ahead and wipes out the satellite locations while the Saviors get their act together. Simon might try to take over, but there's no guarantee he could pull the entire group together. Plus like you said someone is already planning a takeover and it's probably Dwight.
     
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  20. jiggeryqua

    jiggeryqua Active Member

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    Me, and the writers, and plenty of other people - we're all off base, and you have it right? No.

    Also 'No'. Any group like that - a mafia, a street gang etc - already knows who's going to seize power when the opportunity arises. It won't be spoken aloud, but even Negan knows who's waiting in line for power. Let's say Regina steps up to the vacancy (girl power!). First thing she does is bash Simon's brain in and call him a spy - blame him for the insurrection.

    What's your alternative scenario, by the way? Rick should assassinate Negan, and then...? By what imaginary magic does that create a new world of peace, law and order for the civilised survivors? What's to stop another Negan rising up? Nothing. Another Negan will rise up. The Saviors are not a snake. Your analogy fails. They are closer to a hive of insects.. Smack one ant with a rolled-up newspaper and you've still got an ants nest in your backyard.

    Really, think about it. Simon enjoys his position. We can suppose the other lieutenants do too. Even the footsoldiers are going to want to hang on to what they have. The idea that any of them will roll over and give up because the boss took a bullet is nonsense.

    So, in your fevered imagination Rick has shot Negan and consigned the other Saviors to dealing with a zombie herd, while he pops off to deal with the satellites. What are the surviving Saviors up to? Getting, as you say, their act together. Either, as I say, somebody steps up (or two do, and we get to see a brief knife fight), or, as you say, all the saviors suddenly see the error of their ways and surrender to Rick like a bunch of choirboys (and girls) caught smoking behind the vestry. One of those options is based on reality and humanity, the other is based on desperately trying to prop up a half-baked idea that popped into your head.

    "And the other reason you're wrong is that you're right". Thanks for that...
     
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