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I'm almost feeling Negan will be justified

Discussion in 'Episode 613 - The Same Boat' started by forceten, Mar 15, 2016.

  1. forceten

    forceten Member

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    I know the saviors aren't good guys..... but like many of the other groups out there - they are surviving. Hell Even ricks group now seems to be acting a bit like the other groups in the zombie apocalypse. Just doing what they need to - to survive.

    Negan is willing to negotiate, he usually doesn't kill for no reason (unless I'm wrong at that). If somebody is useful he uses them.

    I'm thinking when negan finds out what ricks group did - kill the bikers on the road and now strike his outpost group and kill what - 30 people? I'm thinking he is gonna be justified in killing some of ricks group. Hell all if the numbers need to match up.


    Just trying to see the other side of whats gonna happen.

    Don't get me wrong I look forward to it. But the writers aren't making me feel to bad coming up for some things negan will be doing.

    But I wonder if the walking dead was 6 seasons of the saviors from start till now - and ricks group came along, would we all be saying can't wait to see rick come and hope the saviors kick his butt?
     
    #1 forceten, Mar 15, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
  2. br0k3n

    br0k3n Member

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    This is intentional on the part of the writers/director. They want to create emotional tension by blurring the lines.

    Leadership in the group has definitely bungled up by rushing blindly into a war with little Intel and doing so entirely mercenary, with no long term plan.

    Buildup has been written to diminish Rick's moral authority and showcase his weaknesses, while offering "sympathy for the devil" in regards to the Saviors. From what I'm gathering about Neegan, he will quickly burn through any human understanding you may extend. In spite of Rick's failures, and poor planning- i believe we'll find he retains more of his soul than does Neegan.
     
  3. netr0pa

    netr0pa Member

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    It's wierd but I'm not gonna feel sorry if Rick's ASZ will lose any of its members now. They have it coming, the way they have been doing.

    I just want them to spare FG since he is one of the most interesting character right now so him, they can spare.

    And Morgan, I want to see if he is really going for that negotiation?
     
  4. Blueman

    Blueman Well-Known Member

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    I think, in order to 'help' the audience to 'hate' Negan, the writers are going to have him to do something quite 'evil'. So, he is likely going to kill one or even two main characters brutally in order to trump Rick. Negan wants to inject 'fear' into Rick and co and the writers want to do the same to the viewers.


     
  5. zombiemom62

    zombiemom62 Well-Known Member

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    Negan's guys stopped Daryl, Sasha and Abe for no reason other that to take what was theirs, and was going to kill Abe and Sasha. They were also told that the 16 year old kid was beaten to death and then they gave Negan 1/2 of everything so he wouldn't kill anyone else. They held the guys brother and sent him back to kill Gregory and bring back his head to teach them a lesson on a perceived shortage of the goods delivered. Also the initial interaction with Negan's group was when they chased Daryl, Abe and Sasha and tried to kill them for no reason, and Daryl also got some info on Negan because of what Dwight and the girls discussed. So Rick was not the first one to go after Negan without any reason to. It's just easy to over look all the evidence since it is spread out over several episodes.
     
  6. Spidey

    Spidey Active Member

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    Yeah, if Negan's biker gang went up to Darl, Abe and Sasha and said "whoa you guys have a camp too? lets work together" I highly doubt Rick would have gone after Negan like this. Negan's group were the first aggressors, and in the ZA, once someone is aggressive to you once, it's fair game to kill them back.

    When they first encountered it, Rick's grouped worked together with Alexandria as weary as they were. Negan's group would have just seized it insantly and killed a lot of people. The only person Rick's group intentionally killed really killed was Pete.

    The lines are kind of blurred but I think Negan's group is clearly "more" evil.
     
  7. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    Short attention spans don't understand cause, consequence and context.

    So tired of reading Rick's group is no different than the Saviors. Negotiating a peace deal with Hill Top and not killing, subjugating and taking everything they have is already different than the Saviors. The Saviors would have allowed Jesus to live after stealing the truck? Nah.

    Yes, the Saviors are surviving and yes some of them are gray characters stuck with the Saviors.... but Negan is by no means anything but a tyrant and most of the Saviors are maniacs.
     
  8. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    The lines being blurred is a great thing for the story and it's a great thing to analyze. But utilizing critical thinking skills the conclusion that you come to is that Negan's group are still the bad guys and they drew first blood and draw first blood on everybody. Negan's modus operandi is thievery and oppression at the threat of murder.

    Rick and Co. are way darker than in earlier seasons and don't hesitate to kill any potential threats, but they aren't on that level yet.
     
  9. mtamborra

    mtamborra Member

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    I don't get why people are saying this makes Rick's group the bad guys...Negan's group tried to draw first blood and they said they pop someone right "off the bat"....not good people....I think you guys are just blown away by the ninja stealth kills they did when negans guys were sleeping, but make no mistake...Rick's group are stll the good guys
     
  10. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Rick said they went to Hilltop for food, and they were going to get it. He didn't say "or else", but what else could he have meant?

    SHOULD Rick have let Jesus the ninja live after stealing the food his people needed? No. Starving to death doesn't sound like fun. And Jesus is a "bad guy". He's stealing from your town. He belongs to a group who will probably come after you. Why let him live and try and make him your friend?

    Negan is a tyrant, no question. I highly doubt most of the Saviors are maniacs.
     
    #10 Morgotha, Mar 15, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
  11. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    The women that kidnapped Carol and Maggie were making fun of those guys saying they were posing as tough guys. Before this episode, I thought they were hard-core killers, but maybe that was part of their act to make people surrender. What did motorcycle guy say? "I usually kill someone right off the bat, but I'll make an exception for you." Maybe it was bluster and he never kills someone right off the bat, how do we know?

    Negan's people got cooperation and supplies from the Hilltop with the loss of one person. Not saying they are good people, but they are efficient. He didn't kill half the town and take the same amount. He got what he wanted (a contract to provide them with food) and left them alone.

    A *perceived* shortage, or an *actual* shortage? We don't really know, but if an actual shortage, given their methods it doesn't surprise me that they wanted Gregory's head. Remember they cut off one of their own's (Chelle's) finger for trying to steal gas. The rules are harsh, but if they are applied fairly, I wouldn't complain.

    Remember that Dwight and friends stole insulin (all of it?) from Negan's group. We know that they take stealing from the group very seriously. It's reasonable for them to chase Dwight down and get back what he took, and if they follow Dwight into the woods and find out he has accomplices? Wouldn't they go after him too? How much other lifesaving stuff have they stolen from your group?

    Do the Saviors use fear and intimidation? Yes, but they don't seem to just slaughter people yet. What did Rick say when they got to the ASZ? Paraphrased, it was, "If they don't cooperate, we'll take the place over." That would mean killing the ASZ residents if necessary. What about Hilltop? "We came for food, and we're going to get it." IOW, if they don't give us food, we'll kill them and take it. And in the end, Jesus said they took more than Negan ever did. I think the problem for me is that while their methods are diifferent from Rick's group, the goal and results are the same.
     
    #11 Morgotha, Mar 15, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
  12. zombiemom62

    zombiemom62 Well-Known Member

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    I think we have seen that they do slaughter people for no reason but to make they fear them so they don't oppose them. Rick was bound to get food from Hilltop, not sure what he would have done if things had gone differently. But as far as taking more than Negan, it was a one time deal for 1/2 and then to kill Negan. Which would mean more food for Hilltop if Negan wasn't getting a cut every single week. So Rick's deal was a lot less food taken than Negan's deal. And the Hilltop got something out of it, not only someone to trade with, but allies.
     
  13. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    On the following, they can't exactly be subtle on 10 Harleys, and they look like a suspicious bunch. Once Daryl saw them in his mirrors, he wouldn't drive back to the ASZ. And, it gave them a chance to be tough @ssholes and intimidate someone.

    On Gregory's head, the trouble is we don't know if Hilltop shorted them or not. If they did, the hostage seems reasonable, *in a group that cuts off its own members' fingers for stealing*.

    On Daryl, remember that they got shot at in the vicinity of Dwight. Daryl's group didn't know the Saviors were looking for an escaped thief, but the Saviors did. If you were in the Saviors police department, and in deserted countryside you have someone escaping with your insulin supply, and there just happens to be a couple of vehicles coming down the road right where your escaped prisoner is running towards, would you assume it was just a coincidence? In the ZA? Or would you assume they were working together?

    Rick's deal was for right now only, for now. If Rick still isn't growing food, and they get hungry next week, do you really think they wouldn't go back to Hilltop and ask for more? Also, Hilltop was getting "protection" out of it too, as one would assume Negan would protect his food supply if any other gang tried muscling in on his food supply.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't think that the two groups are morally equivalent, Rick does try and do things the right way, and the Saviors don't. I do think though that in the end they are closer in actions than what one might believe.

    In thinking about it, I do have a bit of sympathy for the Saviors, in that their way has made a large organization that has many colonies, communications, etc. even if people aren't happy about it. To rebuild society, you need a lot of people working together. Rick's way hasn't yielded ANY growth to date, and in fact has more losses of people than gains. The Saviors have banded together in a huge organization. Which of these two systems are more likely to restore electricity to Virginia, or start water, food, and fuel distribution? Which group overall is more likely to get some industrial society up and running? Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I like the idea of someone who has been doing more than just trying to scavenge and survive since the start of the outbreak.
     
    #13 Morgotha, Mar 15, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
  14. Gordian Knot

    Gordian Knot Member

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    In order to understand and realize Rick did what he had to do with the Saviors, one has to remember all of this didn't happen in a vacuum. Rick tried once before to negotiate with an amoral character, the Guvnor, and he lost everything he had built to keep his people safe. He saw the saviors as the Governor all over again. It is why he now has the attitude that if they meet good people, they will do their best to get along even if there are differences, BUT if they meet a psychotic group like the Saviors there is no other choice in this harsh new world but to be proactive and take care of them before they take care of you.

    What makes Rick and company still the 'good guys' is that they believe violence is always their last option, not their first.
     
  15. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    I understand, and if I could live safely under one leader or another, I'd much rather live in Rick's town than Negan's.

    OTOH, from a societal POV, the Europeans were brutal to the primitive people they encountered and oppressed, but at the same time used their resources to develop technologies that made everyone's lives easier in the end. Rick's group and the Hilltop are like peaceful Indian tribes, and the Saviors are England - sort of. It won't happen like that on the show, but maybe it would be better for humanity overall if the Saviors were victorious. Remember, we don't really know what the Saviors are like, and I'm NOT using, "well, in the comics, they..." If the Saviors turn out to me more of a loss for humanity than a gain, they should go.

    Oh, and on Rick's attitude, he did want to do what you say, but remember he ALSO was willing to *take over* the ASZ if they did NOT see things his way.
     
    #15 Morgotha, Mar 15, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
  16. Jen7

    Jen7 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly...I think sometimes it's difficult for non comic readers to understand the full terror that is Negan, but they really did give quite a few clues so far. Also, you don't see Rick's people going around saying "I am Rick Grimes. We are all Rick Grimes." Negan obviously has an unusual amount of power over his people.
     
  17. Gordian Knot

    Gordian Knot Member

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    Yeah I agree this is definitely not an easy world, and the choices one has to make are not always clearly defined. The reality is that in this world of TWD the best, the very best, one can do is to try and make the right choices, even if the are not always the nice choices.

    I will disagree with your last comment. Rick talked a lot of talk about taking over the ASZ, and in the end he did no such thing. Talk is talk, actions are actions. They are not the same thing. In the end, Rick understood that the only way to save the ASZ was to win them over, not to take them over.
     
  18. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    The comics and the show aren't the same though. If the show doesn't make Negan terrifying, then he isn't.

    That being said, the "we are all Negan" does make him out to be a cult leader nutjob. He'll die someday though, possibly some day soon. The infrastructure he left behind will remain in place, and may be used by a more benevolent leader. What infrastructure is left behind in our group's prior towns?
     
  19. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    That's not what Rick thought at all. He didn't respect the people in the ASZ until the nighttime fight with the walkers when he saw the town and its people were worth saving, and he shared the dream of a future there. When he got to the ASZ he thought of them as useless sheep in need of a shepherd - him, and his way of doing things.
     
  20. Jen7

    Jen7 Well-Known Member

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    My point was, if you've already read them, you already have an idea of how frightening he is before this season even started. If you haven't read them, you solely have to go by what the show has introduced. I think they've done a good job so far by giving hints here and there of how terrifying he is. The show may be different in many ways, but it's clear to me they are going to make Negan what he is in the comics. Let's not forget the Polaroids on the wall that Glenn looked at.
     

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