If Rick's group was like they are now in season 1-3?

Hell no, Season 3 would want to kill Season 4-6's group for being cold hearted murderers.

but as time goes on, and their time outside of any semblance of civilization has clued them into the fact that anyone alive now a days aren't heroes, or they're just damn lucky to be defended and protected by assholes.

Is Rick's group still the good guys in relation to now?

I'd still say yes, Rick still wants to save people, and find people to bring back to Alexandria. He didn't kill Jesus, even though he had every reason to.

But being good doesn't mean being stupid. He was right, these Saviours would eventually find them and demand half their supplies, which 2-6 months down the road they wouldn't have, and it would have led to a war.

From what we know of this group through the Road scene, the wall of caved in heads, and the event at Hilltop...these are not good people.

Rick and Co. have done a lot of bad shit, but killing just to make a point? Demanding a leaders severed head to return a hostage?
Killing kids?

Not really.

 

Let's make sure we're consistent. So when the Saviors DO encounter Alexandria, the appropriate thing for them to do at this point is to literally kill everyone in Alexandria before even talking to them, right? No, "let's take hostages", no "let's talk things out", just kill every single person they can. Is that what the appropriate response to Rick's action should be?

 

the saviors attacked others first, before any 'war' was going on: terrorism. [The war theme was your analogy, which got you totally befuddled a couple posts ago, by then calling retaliation to war 'mass murder'] The initial acts of terrorism were murders, and any retaliation is a wartime act [your analogy]. Retaliation is a wartime act. So by your own analogy you've created here, the reason a war is going on is because the saviors violated peacetime, by murdering and terrorizing. [again, your analogy]. The saviors put themselves in the situation by violating peacetime with terrorism when no war existed.

This is why your analogy breaks down. A better way to look at it is to look at the Saviors as terrorists, rather than a country at war with other countries. The saviors are a group of terrorists, like ISIS, and what groups like Rick's are doing is trying to eliminate them. Your defense of them is equal to defending terrorism, and stating that our acts of eliminating them should be considered equal to their acts of continuing to terrorize us. Seems polar opposite of your views in the debate section. .

 

Well, I see you've already regressed to refusing to answer, but trying to change the subject with bluster.

Denise is sure going to be pissed when Rick blows Tara's head off.

 

Again, you mistake getting an answer you don't like, with not getting an answer.

You can continue to defend terrorism by painting the picture of level playing field war going on, but that's still all you are doing. Defending terrorism.

 

Agreed

 

Exactly. Once the saviors commit an act of terrorism without provocation, it becomes the elimination of a terrorist threat.

 

If you want the war analogy

Rick is the army
Hilltop is the invaded country
Saviours are terrorists terrorizing Hilltop

There.

 

Sure, Rick can represent Alexandria's army.
Hilltop is an invaded country.
The Saviors aren't terrorists, though. Terrorists are people without legitimate political or military power that use terrorism to try and get some. The Saviors by all reports outnumber the Hilltop residents by a lot, and have the arms to do a Rick and murder every single one of them if they chose to. This makes them a country, not a group of terrorists. Negan then is the Savior's army. Or you could look at the Saviors as the old Soviet Union, with a central military might commanding a bunch of puppet states to provide them with food and resources.

the trouble currently is that we really don't know anything about the Savior's structure. How many Hilltops do they control? Do they have any allies? Have they met any opposition they have had to knuckle under to, or made pacts with? Until we know more about them it's hard to speculate on what their position really is.

An example of a terrorist would be Jesus, someone who's stealing needed food supplies from Alexandria even though the Alexandrians have less food than the people of Hilltop. Rick should have shot him.

 

The saviors are terrorists.

 

Here's a little test that might help those who are still on the fence with this issue.

You have now been placed in the walking dead universe, you find yourself alone yet you have the benefit of knowing everything that you know now from the show (not the comics, since they're further along). Which group would you hope found you? Rick's, Saviors, or the Hilltop? If you choose Rick's, then that should solve it for you, if not, then you need a little more convincing which I'm sure you will get real soon.

Personally I very much choose Rick's group. Although orange backpack guy might disagree with me :shining:

 

I kind of disagree with the terrorist analogy. That implies there there is an order that the terrorists are trying to break down, but there's no government or order to terrorize in this world.

I kind of agree with the war analogy, except the Saviors are the ones who invaded first to start the war, and now Rick's group is trying to take them out so they don't invade their country again. Like US invading Germany to during WW2. Was the US "defending their soil" not really, similar to how The Saviors haven't aren't attacking Alexandria after their first attack on Abe/Sasha/Daryl. However in order to prevent them from continueing more attacks, Rick's group has to now invade them in a more indirect act of self defense, just like US and other European nations attacked Germany in self defense because they knew it was only a matter of time they would be attacked themselves if they didn't join in.

 

But Maggie did offer weapons , ammo and medical goods for trade. Gregory turned that down and asked for cheap labor and sex. Gregory is a bad negotiator.

 

If there is no government or order then the war analogy doesn't work. You don't really need a government to have terrorism. A group can terrorize another group which is what is going on here. Terrorism isn't necessarily synonymous with destruction. It can be about control too. Terrorizing in order to control.

 

Terrorism
the use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

Politics:
the activities associated with the governance of a country or other area, especially the debate or conflict among individuals or parties having or hoping to achieve power.

Saviours use violence to control what can essentially be called governments.


Government is more than buildings and fancy titles.

Government:
the governing body of a nation, state, or community.


CHECK


Yup it's terrorism.

 

People realize terrorism is more than a poorly worded manifesto and people in Toyotas and who pray to Allah right?

 

"An example of a terrorist would be Jesus, someone who's stealing needed food supplies from Alexandria even though the Alexandrians have less food than the people of Hilltop. Rick should have shot him."

No, that makes him a thief.

 

So basically, in your opinion the United States is a terrorist organization. We don't like what Iran or North Korea is doing? We impose sanctions (intimidate and make them deprived of necessary goods to make them suffer). That's terrorism, right? Or how about Cuba? They are the victim of 50 years of U.S. terrorism.

No, I don't see the legitimate use of a country's political or military power as something that falls within the definition of terrorism.

And given that on the show most of humanity is dead and the species is on the verge of extinction, each one of these groups is more equivalent to a city-state than a portion of a larger government.

 

No, a terrorist. He's not stealing the truck for himself, but for his community. That makes his actions state-sponsored terrorism, right?

Granted if he was just stealing it to joyride and torch it afterwards, that would be thievery, but that's not why he was taking it.

Since Hilltop committed terrorism against Alexandria, according to Neuro,Rick should go in there and kill everyone in Hilltop. That would solve the problem of having to ask them for food.

 

Sanctions aren't terrorism
It's taking your ball home

You also tried to claim Jesus was a terrorist because he tried to steal food, so I don't think your understanding of this conversation is on stable ground here.


The Saviours are terrorizing communities for political gain, and to destabilize the region.

They are also not at war, there is no war going on here at the moment, simply the terrorism against surrounding communities for supplies, drugs and food.