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is our group still the good guys?

Discussion in 'Episode 613 - The Same Boat' started by msmith73, Mar 13, 2016.

  1. Neuropyramidal

    Neuropyramidal Well-Known Member

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    No, I see what you're saying, but I think its a bit more than semantics though. Once we understand that the saviors are terrorists, it becomes clear why they are a threat that needs to be eliminated. Their tactic is to kill a member of any random group they come across, and then find that group's community, sometimes killing another person to make a point, and then forcing that community to operate under their rule, and taking half or more of their supplies. There's really no valid way to look at that as a 'war'. Its just terrorism. Terrorism not for the purpose of total destruction, but to control via terror. If it was a mutual war, we could say that both sides are conducting wartime activities, but there's no war. Some people are having a hard time seeing that, and I think what is tripping them up is they are trying to confine 'terrorism' to all its attributes we see in our world.

    Another poster shortsightedly said they can't be terrorists, because they are not a small faction existing inside a larger body or country. That's because the world no longer exists in large bodies like countries lol. The architecture of the world has changed. We are divided into small, less organized groups. We see no major civilizations existing that have smaller resistant factions or movements within them. But that doesn't mean terrorism doesn't exist. It does, and has been going on at the Hilltop. Terrorist need to be eliminated, and preemptively, if you are lucky enough to see them coming, like our group did.
     
    #101 Neuropyramidal, Mar 17, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2016
  2. Zalanii

    Zalanii Member

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    People arguing that there is no civilization in TWD

    [​IMG]

    This here is Mesopotamia. What makes it civilization and Alexandria not?

    Neither is like our lives today
    But Mesopotamia is by all accounts a civilization.

    So is Alexandria, it is an early post ZA agricultural society. It has a leader, and advisers, and a police force to enforce some sort of legal code.


    Sounds like civilization to me.
     
  3. Jen7

    Jen7 Well-Known Member

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    But like...there's no WiFi.
     
  4. Neuropyramidal

    Neuropyramidal Well-Known Member

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    Mesopotamia had a fire truck!?!?!?!


    [​IMG]
     
  5. Zalanii

    Zalanii Member

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    No chocolate peanut butter protein bars that Morgan likes either.
     
  6. AnnieOakley

    AnnieOakley Active Member

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    Funny thing is, I don't think I was responding to you, but either way, I politely disagree on some points you make in this post. The main thing I was disagreeing with (the poster's name is Morgotha or something), was her referencing to all killing being "murder", etc. That is what opened the door for my rebuttal, basically saying that if you're going to apply pre-ZA legal terminology, you gotta do it correctly, because ZA or not, some words do have objective meaning and obvious connotations. So whether or not you want to cross the fictional/non-fictional line is up to you, but for those who do, it's gotta be consistent.

    Again, I'm fairly certain I was referencing the collective "you", and not you specifically as an FYI for people - in general - that argue an analogy can't be valid if comparing fiction to nonfiction, which has exceptions where that's true, but is overall a false statement. Now, if you don't personally like seeing the worlds collide this way, I get that, and no argument there. These clarifications are for those who begin a conversation with real-world legal terms, used incorrectly, and then (wrongly) translate them onto characters in the ZA.

    That's all.
    Cheers,
    Annie out -
     
    #106 AnnieOakley, Mar 17, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2016
  7. campbellj21

    campbellj21 Member

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    Sorry about that, thanks for the clarification ;)
     
  8. rustybag

    rustybag Member

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    The Saviors at this point seem more like the mafia to me, but we don't know how much of the area they have infiltrated, how many members they have or how organized the are. The mafia does use terrorism (violence and intimidation to keep people oppressed and under control), but "terrorists" have greater goals; like in our real world, trying to impose Islam. I don't think these Saviors have some grand political or religious ideology they are trying to impose on others, it seems like they are just trying to control territory and goods and maintain discipline. As far as the biker gang or the people Daryl met up with, it's not unlike in the real world where in certain cultures, an outsider coming into your territory is fair game for kidnapping or thievery. They may be terrorizing you, but that's not a "terrorist". I'd like to know more about how they are structured.
     
    #108 rustybag, Mar 18, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2016
  9. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    The mafia is a good comparison to the Saviors. They both have their own code and offer "protection" in exchange for you paying them off. They use violence to keep people in line too.
     
  10. Neuropyramidal

    Neuropyramidal Well-Known Member

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    Sure it is. A terrorist doesn't have to be religious in nature. Especially in this world. They are using terror to control other groups. They are terrorists.

    But the mafia analogy is a great one too. They both are terrorizing groups of people, routinely murdering members of other groups as a tactic of terror. They need to be eliminated. But not before we get at least 24 to 32 episodes of Negan creatively cussing.
     
    #110 Neuropyramidal, Mar 18, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2016
  11. Zalanii

    Zalanii Member

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    Many members of the police, and even some members of the FBI would argue organized crime IS terrorism.

    It's just right now all the eggs are in the one type of terrorism basket.
     
  12. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Exactly what I thought when I read through all these pages. How difficult is it to see that Negan's group is operating your classic extortion racket? That makes THEM the bad guys. If the only way your group can survive is to take advantage of and misuse other groups trying to survive, that's a big red flag.
     
  13. rustybag

    rustybag Member

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    Well I don't know about that, I do think there is a distinction between mafia and terrorists. In real life, in certain parts of the US (NYC for example), there are some people who feel the Sicilian mafia can get a better handle on terrorist extremists than Homeland security or the FBI. Mafias have a "good" side and offer protection too. I'm not sure what kind of protection the groups who are under the thumb of Negan are offered. At any rate, when civilization breaks down and you don't have government or law anymore, I think it's just human nature that people are going to try to establish dominance and control resources. If you don't, someone else will.
     
    #113 rustybag, Mar 18, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2016
  14. msmith73

    msmith73 Member

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    survival of the fittest I get it. There is no one that is free of evil actions. Things you would do in a ZA to survive you would see as immoral and disturbing in a normal society. But despite the environment or the world that you live in right is right and wrong is wrong. While I understand Rick's actions and most likely would have done the exact same thing to protect the ones I love, it would not change the fact that those actions would be wrong and I would not be a "good guy".
     

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