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Judith is Shane's Babe

Discussion in 'Episode 704 - Service' started by Neuropyramidal, Nov 13, 2016.

  1. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    I agree. She let him talk because she cares about him and he needed to tell her his truth. She probably did hear about Shane from Carl but Carl may not have known anything about the details concerning his sister's paternity. To hear Rick say what he did was probably news to her at that moment but gave her more insight into Rick's motives.
     
  2. M3O

    M3O Member

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    That broke my heart, hearing Rick talk about Shane and Lori. God this show kills me.
     
  3. ShaneFan

    ShaneFan Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad Judith turned out to be Shane's daughter. Michonne was questioning about Rick's handling with Negan. And Rick pretty much explained to her without saying it directly what Shane had been trying get him to understand since Season 2: "the right choice is the one that keeps us alive."

    Rick was belittled, humiliated, bullied, and demeaned in this episode--as was Olivia, Rosita, Daryl, Carl, and Enid -- by Negan and the Saviors. However, he did what he had to do to ensure that Judith stayed alive. He wanted the same for everyone else in this episode, but especially Judith -- she's a baby, helpless, and dependent on Rick for her survival. I think Rick is coming to face the fact that he made a bad choice to go after the Saviors when he didn't know enough about them. Abraham and Glenn paid the price with their lives, and Spencer threw that back in Rick's face. So when Rick brought up Shane...it wasn't just about Judith, but also about what Shane had taught him. It's sad and heartbreaking, but it is what it is: Rick is learning that in order to survive and get by under Negan's thumb--he's going to have to deal with being trampled on like this--for the time being. Definitely not forever.

    Rick saw firsthand what Negan did to Glenn and Abraham and he didn't want Olivia to get killed. And from the way Negan handed Lucille to Rick...it was almost like an unsaid "if you don't find my guns, you'll be the one to Lucille Olivia" -- much in the same way he tried to get Rick to chop off Carl's arm. Divide and conquer. Make Rick mutilate or kill his own. That's straight up controlling, manipulative and emotionally abusive on Negan's part.

    In coming to terms that Shane is the father of Judith, he was able to forgive Shane. He was able to acknowledge what Shane had done for his family--keep Lori and Carl alive when he was in a coma in the hospital. However, I don't want to take away from all that Rick has done for Judith. Shane is the biological father, he never had a chance to parent Judith since he spiraled downward and Rick murdered him. However, Rick has been a wonderful father to Judith in the sense that he loves her like his own, and he will do anything to protect her and ensure her survival.

    And yes, I was *thrilled* to hear Shane's name mentioned, and for this whole "who's Judith's father?" to be cleared up once and for all. I fell asleep on and off during the first showing, and my boyfriend told me Rick told Michonne about Shane. When Judith was brought up, I told him "yeah, right, I was just joking about Judith being Shane's--Judith Walsh." Then...I had to watch the encore -- I had to see it to believe it. I loved the scene, it was very touching.

    I'm glad that TWD doesn't completely forget about its deceased characters. I was appalled at the way Negan referred to Abraham, and more upset about how Spencer threw in Rick's face what happened to Glenn and Abe, but I'm glad to see these characters -- Shane, Glenn, and Abraham --and many more--still alive within the characters hearts and minds long after their deaths.
     
    #23 ShaneFan, Nov 14, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
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  4. Jama

    Jama Well-Known Member

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    Right? I mean I get that Rick may have never brought Shane up to anyone. But I would find it hard to believe Carl, Glenn, Maggie, Daryl, and Carol never brought him up to anyone as well. Or Andrea! She got all freaky-deeky with Shane and then she spent 6 months out in the open with Michonne. Andrea never mentioned him.... even once?!?!

    What about T-Dogg? He would have said something. T-Dogg couldn't keep his big mouth shut! Always talking. ;-)
     
  5. JEA13

    JEA13 Well-Known Member

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    Speaking about talking... If Rick is certain Judith is not by him not having sex within the possible time frame for Judith to have been conceived, Rick should have reacted differently when he found out his wife was pregnant. We didnt see any angry conversation between the 2 when she announced she was pregnant.
     
  6. Expat-N-America

    Expat-N-America Active Member

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    There was some uncertainly. Lori told Rick that Shane thought she and the baby were his, and Rick couldn't protect them. She said to him, "No matter what, the baby is yours". When she first told him about the pills she threw up in "Secrets", she confessed to the affair also so you know paternity was on her mind.

    So we didn't see an argument about it, but they were not sure it was Rick's. She actually seemed more sure it was Shane's. The look on her face when she insists "It's Ricks" when she's asked looks an awful lot like a woman trying to convince herself.
     
  7. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    Right, and since Rick killed Shane it's not something he wants to discuss.

    Overall they probably could have done better with that dialogue though if Rick had simply said, remember Shane who was part of our original group.

    A key factor is that it was Shane that kept Lori and Carl safe so Michonne had to have at least known about him in passing. It shouldn't have been news to Michonne that Shane was Rick's partner.
     
  8. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    This is also one reason I'd like them to work the past into the dialogue more from season to season. People particularly living in such close proximity to each other and in life and death situations constantly will be discussing these things. I'm glad they referenced Shane. The last time he was mentioned was in Season 4 when Carl was angry at Rick. But we need references from the past from time to time. For instance when Rick was trying to win the Alexandrians over to his way of thinking a couple of seasons ago, it would have been effective if he said their group had been captured by cannibals. What better way to bring the danger of the outside world to them.
     
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  9. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    There was uncertainty when Lori was telling both men about the pregnancy. IMO that was the cause of the final blow up between the two which led to the events at the end of season two. I think Rick realized or convinced himself back then that Shane was the father because he and Lori seemed estranged as season three got underway. The thing is is that he loved them both, and after they were gone, he made that decision to accept and love Judith as his own to honor their memories. She's all he has left of either one of them.
     
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  10. jackson04

    jackson04 Active Member

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    [​IMG]

    That should be *Making, but you all get it :D

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    #30 jackson04, Nov 14, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
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  11. calliope

    calliope Active Member

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    Yes, I agree it felt a bit off. Probably a little exposition for fans who might not have followed it so closely from the start. It makes sense that Carl would have spoken of him, probably in very favorable terms. It's very unlikely that Carl ever thought much of Judith's paternity since he was too young at the quarry and the farm to have grasped what was going on between Lori and Shane. I doubt they'll ever go there, but that would be a kicker.
     
  12. deadcpa

    deadcpa Member

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    Haven't we known for years this was Shane's baby? I mean Shane shagged the heck out of Lori.
     
  13. calliope

    calliope Active Member

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    We've known it, and Daryl and Carol most likely believe it to be true, but Rick has never acknowledged it, at least out loud.
     
  14. bassetluv

    bassetluv Active Member

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    It's refreshing to read someone's view that "gets" what Rick is really going through, rather than the "Rick can't handle it any more" type of responses (here, as well as the rest of cyberspace). I think you got it spot on.

    Great post. :zombies_cool:
     
  15. ShaneFan

    ShaneFan Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your kind words! I've been reading that a lot also: "Rick is weak, Rick can't handle it anymore." It reminds me of The Hunger Games. I don't know if you've seen the movies or read the books, but many readers/viewers responds to Katniss Everdeen in the final part of the trilogy, Mockingjay, had a similar response. "She's not a fighter anymore!" and "How did she get so weak?" and on and on.

    Those types of responses to both characters show a lack of understanding of the human condition, and mainly, ignore everything that the character has gone through to reach the point they're at now. Everyone has a breaking point, or a moment where they feel they can't go on. It's not because they're weak or can't handle it, but because they've seen and been through so much devastation. It could be multiple deaths, being surrounded by and also carrying out constant violence to survive, always being fearful for one's life and the lives of those you love and doing anything to keep them alive even at your own expense <--this just happens to the case for Rick (and also Katniss Everdeen).

    Those responses about Rick not being handle it anymore floor me. It really ignores what happened in the Season 7 premiere and really, *everything* he's seen and done up to now. It minimizes the fact that at the end of the day: Rick is doing whatever he can to survive, and right now he's heartbroken that two people he love as family were brutally murdered by a mixed combo of his bad choices and another man's need for absolute control (Negan).

    It saddens me that a show and story with so much to say about the human condition, so much depth--that this goes over the heads of some fans who just Rick to always be the one that comes out on top. Sometimes you have to have your back broken in order to rise up again and become stronger than ever (like with Bruce Wayne/Batman in The Dark Knight Rises.) I'm speaking from my own experience with that -- only it wasn't my back that got broken, but my spirit and heart in ways that when I did start to mend and strengthen again--I had to change part of who I was and how I did things. I think that's what's happening to Rick here--he will rise up again stronger than ever. For now, he's adapting to this recent change as he told Michonne it has to be this way so that they all survive. He'll remember and treasure what Shane tried to teach him because he understands it now more than ever before, and he has his best friend's daughter's life to put first.
     
    #35 ShaneFan, Nov 14, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2016
  16. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    Understanding psychology and cause/consequence are not strong points for many people.

    Great post.
     
  17. ShaneFan

    ShaneFan Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, Ionut, that is kind of you. I really think it also boils down to being able to put ourselves in Rick's shoes, having empathy for him and where he's at. What would I or you or anyone feel if we just saw our loved ones get their heads bashed in...? And knowing that Negan truly is a man of his word--and that the responsibility of Judith and everyone in your group and Alexandria--rests on your shoulders...
     
  18. BulletofBullets

    BulletofBullets Active Member

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    Up until now I wasn't sure if Rick knew that Judith wasn't his or if he was not accepting that she's Shane's baby. However, I have so much respect now that I've heard from Rick that he knows he's not the father. He's accepted it all and is going to be there for Judith to watch her grow and teach her everything to survive. Honestly his spiel had me in tears!
     
  19. Prufrock

    Prufrock Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes I think human nature just makes us not want to know or ignore it, because it's too painful...for everyone involved. It's easier to dust it under the rug and not resurrect old ghosts. When survival is the name of the game, these things may be overlooked.

    But then you know one day while scavenging, Rosita was all like - "You didn't know, girrlll??!!??" Gossip or truth telling would be the same among people on the ZA, as it is at the proverbial water cooler.
     
  20. RicksdaMan

    RicksdaMan Active Member

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    No one should be surprised by that revelation. :zombies_lol: I knew that since day one, so did Shane.
     

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