Yes I would agree with you on that. In your initial post, it sounded to me like you were saying Maggie was responsible because she did the negotiating, but I think they all should be feeling responsible for their part in this.

 

BOTH Rick (as former LE) and Abe (Sgt ret) should have vigorously protested the mercenary agreement and advised Maggie otherwise based on their combined knowledge. This is about maneuvers they have years of professional experience with prior to the ZA.

I'm still trying to figure out how they overlooked this and went along with it. Maybe the emotional confusion and relationship issues the writers have been dragging Abe through was a way to address this failure? Rick should still have his head screwed on, yet he's the one selling the plan. The deal stunk so bad I could taste it. Without knowing anything about the comics I knew this would result in avoidable deaths. Rick and Abe's failure here was what finally pushed me to join this forum lol. Is there a therapy thread I can find some inner healing? lol

 

Actually Rick takes a lot of counsel from his group members and from a diversity of the group members in regards to points of view and persona's. Rick hasn't been a "dictator" since the end of S3 and even then he took counsel very deeply from Maggie's wise father Hershel and Maggie is a cut of that cloth.

The main factor is Gregory wanted Maggie and that was him reading the situation wrong because Maggie is not some clueless girl, she's a proper developing leader and badass and she performed incredibly in both instances.

In the past I didn't like her character as much because she exhibited immature tendencies and emotionalism, but I am very happy with what I am seeing and I wasn't suggesting you were stating that she didn't perform well, I was just clarifying why the group went along with it. And even if Gregory specifically did not want Maggie, she still would have been a sound choice for the negotiations and in fact if I was the group leader, she would have been my choice for the reasons I previously listed.

Utilizing Maggie, someone Gregory is ill equipped to deal with due being attracted to her and not considering her very tough is an excellent poker face and deception is your friend in brokering the best deal possible.

I'm not just citing his emotional issue's, but his mental issue's. He is off his ****ing rocker and has proved to be utterly useless lately in both combat and personal life decisions. Abe wasn't aware of his surroundings being teamed up with Sasha, got slashed in the arm and couldn't neutralize the attacker, Sasha neutralized him but being that she's more of a talented sniper than a close quarter fighter, she didn't neutralize him quick enough before he could snap the alarm. A skilled close quarter fighter like Daryl or Rick or Michonne would have had him neutralized instantly with a clean kill via neck or head slash/blow.

Abe is nothing but a liability right now. And I am not mentioning his Rosita/Sasha ordeal as much as I am the fact that he's shown he's losing it, that little Hill Top dude had him strangled and he sat there like a tranquil panda in bliss.

Yes he is an experienced former ranked military officer. That would be of excellent use in the group if he were smart, but he's dumb as ****, he's a big dumb brute and his only use is in combat and physical combat specifically and because he's losing it - he's not good at that right now.

Rosita is also former military and it shows because she's kicking ass in combat. Although I wouldn't utilize her in a close quarter situation and would utilize her as a marksman because of her small stature and limited physical strength, she performed well and iced off several Saviors and she is mentally on point, but in a situation where the guns drop and we've got to fight hand to hand or with knives I'd prefer a more seasoned physically imposing combatant.

That said everybody is more effective than Abe right now in combat.

I would agree. A former officer would be an excellent source of information against these biker Saviors and hardened survivors and so on. Imagine having a Seal or a Green Beret in your unit, you couldn't find more value.

Problem is, the dude is dumb and emotionally weak. So he's a useless source.

They're all hardened by this point and all have been in battles.

The tactics they've used without intel and without proper planning I agree have been poor, but luck and all involved right now they've escaped with ther lives and have put a dent in the Saviors...

So.... if they can get it together now and do what's necessary and be smart they'd still have the advantage, although then we wouldn't have much of a show.

#1 thing they need to do is go back home and kill Morgan before he acts as their Trojan horse.

 

LE officers are not always the brightest bunch, lol - had to throw that in. Nor are they usually skilled combatants.

Rick's become a beast over time but I've never really cited him as a genius, he's made numerous mistakes.

Abe's a tard, end of story on that.

Still this deal we're missing the fact that first person that offered up the mercenary idea was Daryl. Daryl's previous experience with the Saviors making him feel rather confident and Daryl having been on the war path since his experience with Dwight/Sherry. The group then went along with that.

Maggie did not make the decision, the group did. Maggie did not even suggest it, she just went and negotiated the best deal that the group decided upon.

Maggie bears no blame for any poor planning either, the only blame she can have on her is being in a position of vulnerability and no use whilst pregnant and getting captured. Other than that - bravo to Maggie.

 

RIGHT? I was like WTH is going on?

 

Abe hasn't had time to decompress until now, so all the shit is catching up to him. He kinda had a death wish til being stuck with Sasha, and he feels guilty, and feels like he wants to "live" now.

That's what the scene is trying to convey, that or Abe was dying for a nap.

 

Most of the LE I know personally are former military, so maybe I just have higher expectations. Even if Rick couldn't speak to all the same agenda items that Abe should have been able to, there would be some overlap. Agree that Rick has made some whoppers along the way. IMO this may turn out to be the biggest yet.

 

I was acquainted with a marine patrol officer that was a former Navy Seal. This guy was retired and in his 50s and just wanted something fun to do to kill time.

Every other talented former military I've ever known either went into private sector or business.

I know some quality LE, including SWAT, but for the most part most are just ordinary people who wouldn't be a big deal in a fight or a firefight.

At the shooting range in one instance I was watching an off duty cop practice and appalled at the poor marksmanship at a mere 7 yards.

Rick/Shane were firearm instructors, they were real deal shots prior to the ZA and Rick's gotten survival on the job training and you're correct about Abe being a former SGT should be of immense use to them. But he's a bleeding idiot going though tranquil panda spiritual-menstruation and is prone to emotional meltdown at any given time with no focus. Useless as **** right now.

I'd consult Rosita before I'd consult his dumbass. Rosita is performing like a proper trained soldier, likely a former female marine. She also looks so hot with that M4 and stone cold Sarah Connor like disposition during the raid, OMG.

 

[MENTION=19041]rustybag[/MENTION]

TO BE CLEAR. That is exactly what I am saying. Maggie IS responsible. She did the negotiating. She sealed the deal with Hilltop Dummy In Charge. She is the emerging leader of Alexandra. She is an ought to feel responsible for the outcome.

This is not to say that others are NOT also responsible. Everyone who agreed to the plan is also responsible. IMO there are some who are more responsible than others.

On that list: (1) Rick, (2) Abe (have discussed this at length on this and other threads - even though he's currently a ____________ insert adjective, his professional training makes him responsible), (3) Rosita (someone mentioned she also had a military career, not sure how I missed that), (4) any others I may have missed that have had LE or military careers. THEY SHOULD KNOW why this plan was flawed.

Also on the list: Everyone who signed on to the plan with zero objections in Rick's sales pitch meeting. Seems to me that it wouldn't require professional background or a lot of training to simply ask "why isn't Hilltop invested in securing it's own freedom?" And open that can.

To recap: Maggie is responsible. And when she sees people she cares about die at the season finale, she will feel that. And she will be faced with a choice: (a) step down and give up any dream of being a leader, or (b) suck it up and own those deaths and figure out a way to make them mean something (as in - put a good plan in place quickly to utterly destroy the Saviors, and this time make it a plan that works).

 

@Ionut

Somehow I missed it that Rosita had a military career. Yes she should have been aware of the flaws in this plan. Yes I would have utilized her on one of several sniper teams sent out to harass the Saviors and pick off their leaders. If I recall Sasha is good shot also on this show.

To your other discussion, I think the ever expanding and changing laws create a tremendous burden on our LE that saps focus away from important and perishable skills as you mention.

 

I would agree to that, responsible for her part, but not solely responsible, as the rest of them went along with it.

Rick was also the one saying they needed to take them out before they came for them, and both he and Abe revealed to Jesus that they took out the biker gang. They probably should have kept that to themselves and had that be everyone's little secret, Negan and his people had no idea who took out the biker gang and had no way of finding out. I agree with you and also wonder why isn't Hilltop invested in securing their own freedom. Jesus to me is an interesting character and I can see why they chose him to go out and do scavenging and to look for new people. He has that charming, cult of personality thing going on, where it seems like you could trust him. However, he out smarted them a few times, stole the truck, can actually fight pretty well, got out of captivity and assessed ASZ, now he's got Rick and Co. doing Hilltop's dirty work for them. I think they all got outsmarted and should bear some responsibility for the whatever consequences are to come.

 

Agree. He has a skill set. Where did he come by that?

 

I totally agree. I think Maggie is very underrated and really shines when she's not with Glenn. I liked this episode a lot because it centred on two of my favourite characters.