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Morgan Becomes Worst Enemy to ASZ, "Precious Life"

Discussion in 'Episode 608 - Start To Finish' started by AnnieOakley, Nov 30, 2015.

  1. Shane357

    Shane357 Active Member

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    that'd be cool, though I hope they find some way to snap Morgan back to reality. It's tough to see his character go to waste, especially with such a fantastic actor.

    I think the philosophy Morgan is operating includes that of the philosophy that says it is wrong to do anything against morals, even if it is for the greater good. Morgan isn't unrealistic even in his world. There are people like him out there.

    yes.

    I have criticized Morgan multiple times for his actions vs "all life is precious" stuff. I believe he is wrong even though he is trying to do good.

    That's your own opinion, but I disagree. Tyreese's philosophy is very similar to Morgan's. Like Morgan, he kept it from the group that he had not killed Martin but let him go. He even let them believe he had killed Martin, and like Morgan, he believes that no matter how evil a person is it's not worth killing them. (Look at the scene where he's talking to Sasha about Bob and the cannibals for example).


    I won't deny that Shane had a big flaw with that Lori situation, but I also disagree with you. Shane's decisions were right 99% of the time. When he kills Otis, openly says he thinks they should call off the search for Sophia, busts Hershel's barn open (albeit against Rick's orders), or snaps Randall's neck, he is justified in his action as it produces the greater good (unlike Morgan). It's not because he lost every bit of morality he had left either.

    Shane is right in shooting Otis - if he hadn't shot him, all three of them (Otis, Shane, and Carl)would have died. Shane also volunteered to stay behind, which Otis refused. Even after this, you can see how hurt he is because of this.

    Shane is right in his decision to cut losses and discontinue the search for Sophia.
    He is later proved right about her and in the meantime Daryl is almost fatally injured on the search.
    Shane is right in busting open the barn open. He wasn't doing it to ruin Hershel's hope of a zombie cure but to protect the group.
    Even Shane's self-interest results in the greater good. He's just a good guy who did bad things. I don't think people realism the extent of how Lori mindscrewed him. He was already mentally unstable and she knew that (while I do believe her intentions weren't to get him screwed up). Shane made a few mistakes but overall he was a good person.
    Yeah, he's like Shane in that sense. The only difference is that he still has his buttkissing skills intact. Shane didn't go around killing people either. He looked like a jerk because most of the group was dumb.
    like I said, Shane's decisions were not (as many say) immoral. He and the current Rick are very much the same mentality. They aren't evil. They're just feeling around and trying to adapt to the world they're in.
    Shane told Rick,"you can't just be the good guy and expect to live." He's right. While Rick is not evil (far from it) he's far from being the good guy.

    You may say he is, and from a narrowed-downpoint of view,I would agree- Rick is definitely a good guy by ZA standards. But I think when Shane said that, he was referring to the old-standards of their previous world. Rick isn't that kind of guy anymore.
    The 'all life is precious' philosophy thing is nice, but even in the world we live in, when stood up to face reality, falls short. Because for you to live, something else (even plants)has to die. (I'm not saying kill indiscriminately either.)

    Morgan's actions are wrong, we can't deny it. He's so focused on his "we don't kill ethics that he fails to see the consequences of his actions. All right. We can't fault Morgan for having morals, or that he's acting from a sense of duty, or even that a huge chunk of his ethics are to hold him together. But if you look at it, narrow down, it all boils down to one thing: unintended consequences.
     
  2. surviving

    surviving Well-Known Member

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    e·vil ˈēvəl/
    adjective: evil

    1.
    profoundly immoral and malevolent.
    "his evil deeds"
    synonyms: wicked, bad, wrong, immoral, sinful, foul, vile, dishonorable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, reprobate, villainous, nefarious, vicious, malicious;

    Yes you have called Morgan's ideals evil. Look at the above definition. You have used several of the synonyms listed above to describe Morgan.You even state people who hold this view in the real world are foul.
    As far as detailed posts, I see the same argument posted over and over just worded differently. Also I think you're the one who is confused, I haven't once defended Morgan's actions or stated I agree with them. And if you wish I can give answers to your questions of how Glenn is like Morgan in his philosophy. Glenn has adhered to this premise the entire series thus far.
    The current situation is a culmination of random events which no one individual is responsible.
     
  3. sheryden

    sheryden Member

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    Sorry, but no. Morgan holds the lion's share of responsibility here. He chose to let the five Wolves live, knowing they were killers. Those five then tried to kill Rick and disabled his only means of leading the walkers away from Alexandria.

    Morgan chose to let the Alpha Wolf live, chose not to tell Rick, and chose to deliver the town's doctor into his presence. He was moderately restrained in an non-secure location. Think about it. How did Eugene, Tara, and Rosita get into the house? They went in through the unlocked garage. The Alpha easily could have gone out the same way.

    He chose to body slam Carol in order to save his prisoner.

    He chose to do all of those things. His intentions may have been sincere, but he still bears responsibility for what occurred as a result of those decisions.
     
  4. surviving

    surviving Well-Known Member

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    nO
    Morgan had no idea that the 5 Wolves would imped Rick. Denise chose to go to where the Wolf was. Morgan told her that ths was something she might not want to be involved in. The door to the room where the Wolf was barred from the outside. The door from the house to the garage was locked. Eugene picked it so he, Rosita and Tara could get in the house. Carol was trying to kill Morgan when he body slammed her. If Carol hadn't attacked Morgan, the Wolf would still be a prisoner.
     
  5. Biffster

    Biffster Well-Known Member

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    Morgan is a liability now because he values a stranger's life, even a killer's life, over those who have taken him in to their community. When we first met him, he was afraid to kill his zombie wife, who ended up killing his son Duane. Next time we met him he was full out nut job, indiscriminately killing both the dead and the living, and now that he's back, he never really worked out his issues. It's all or nothing, but he's still basically a coward. That cowardice will cost more innocent lives, just like it cost him his son's life. Morgan is too much of an idealist to make it in this world.
     
  6. sheryden

    sheryden Member

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    Morgan knew they were dangerous, and he knew that one of them had tried to kill him before. He knew that by letting them go, there was a chance that they could hurt someone else. AND they knew where Alexandria was. It was a bad decision.

    Doors tend to lock from the inside. The door leading to the garage in my aunt's house locks from the inside. If I wanted to go out the door, all I would have to do is turn the lock, and presto! I would be be able to enter the garage. Eugene had to pick the lock because they were outside the house. My aunt's door is the same way. That way, if she leaves her garage door open, there is an extra layer of security from the outside. The Alpha could have left the house.

    Carol was trying to eliminate a threat. She could have been smarter about it, but she was correct in her thinking. Also, she is not a big woman. Morgan could have restrained her. Take a look at his face after she is on the ground. He knows he crossed a line.
     
  7. surviving

    surviving Well-Known Member

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    As I said, Morgan could not have known that they would imped Rick. The lock on the door leading inside the house from the garage is more than likely a double keyed dead bolt like the one in Jesse's house on the door leading to the garage. Requires key on both sides to and unlock it.The houses in ASZ are spec houses which mean they are built similiar. Morgan tries to reason with Carol. But Carol has had amental melt down at the sight of the Wolf. We can tell this by her dialogue and body language. He tells her this can wait. Morgan does try to restrain Carol to no avail. She is definately trying to kill him. Morgan does what needs he needs to do to survive.
    If Carol hadn't fought with Morgan, the Wolf would still be locked up. But on the other hand,if Morgan had given Carol a guarantee that the Wolf wouldn't kill again, the Wolf would still be locked up. The Wolf wasn't a threat until Carol fought with Morgan. He was restrained with three people in the room to keep him that way.
     
    #107 surviving, Dec 6, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
  8. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    He's exhibited some of those qualities, nobody here has stated that he is evil however. We've said he's delusional and dangerous and highly self centered. That his actions are indirect evils under the guise of deluded, severely extremist altruism with no reasoning room.

    Having some qualities of a definition filled with subjective symptoms doesn't make one the fully described definition.



    You see different angles and facets of a complex character comparison/analysis, under the umbrella of the same argument.

    Which you are apparently having issue understanding because you're coming back with literally the same responses with no substance to back it up, after these points have been addressed.

    You have defended Morgan's actions, what is it do you think we are arguing? You may not agree with them or feel he is right, but you obviously don't feel he is wrong to the extent that we do and you are defending his actions from the position that his actions are less bad than we think and similar to moralist characters.

    Re-read and re-think what you are trying to say here.

    And no, Glenn is not comparable to Morgan. If you have anything of substance to point out against that, then go back a few pages and address my post where I broke down clear differences in how Glenn has operated within the group and how Morgan operates.


    He knew his people were out there dealing with the herd, which went awry and knew that letting them go was dangerous, he admitted such in the meeting. His words - "I saw what they did, knew what they'd do again".

    Think about what you're posting. lol....

    Are you serious, or just trolling?
     
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  9. sheryden

    sheryden Member

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    And as I said, he knew they were dangerous and would probably hurt someone. Letting them go was a dumb move.

    You're being pretty naive here. The Wolf is a stone-cold killer. He would have taken whatever opportunity presented itself and would have eventually gotten out. Maybe it wouldn't have been at that moment, but it would have happened. It's a house. Not a proper jail cell. Carol has some measure of responsibility here, too, because she should have waited until after the herd to deal with the situation. But she was not wrong in seeing the Wolf for the threat that he was. But the situation would not have existed at all if Morgan had either killed the Wolf or immediately gone to Rick to tell him he had a prisoner. It was a reckless decision to hide him and bring the town's doctor into imminent danger and to continue to defend the man when he knew what kind of person he was.

    Exactly. Morgan was not naive about who these people were. He even admitted that he considered abandoning his pacifism.
     
  10. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    Yes there are deluded examples like Morgan all through the real world. Although I don't think many of them are trying to do good or are fully conscious of their actions.

    Morgan admitting he can't tell right from wrong anymore is the telling factor and that's where I am at with him in combination with his actions.

    Yes but he doesn't get in the way of his group taking care of these hazards. He made an error with Martin but it's under a different context than what we're dealing with now, Tyreese likely wrongly assumed the Terminus threat was eliminated on their escape and the destruction of their facility.

    People who don't kill or see it wrong to kill another human even in circumstances like that still aren't reaching the twisted level of where Morgan's philosophy is at.

    Morgan's philosophy extends to the point where he's literally going to betray his group to keep it up, Tyreese and other non killers step out of the way when stuff had to be done even if they didn't enjoy it. If you're willing to step out of the way and not backstab your companions over a moral issue then your philosophy doesn't extend into really radical extremism to where the philosophy takes total precedence.

    And the same goes for killers, there's just different levels and dynamics to everyone.


    He was right about a lot of things(no doubt, never said otherwise), also wrong about stuff. He ended up being very unbalanced.

    The earlier group was early in the ZA and still entrenched in societal ways, he wised up that this was bullshit faster than anyone else did, but he also went off the deep end quickly under the weight of everything.

    What I'm citing as the differences between Rick/Shane is selfless/selfish and more controlled/lack of control and those differences are why they always will be different, because those are huge driving things in a person's mental state and personality.

    I agree he was correct about all of that. Upon watching S2 for the first time I was annoyed with how stupid Rick was.

    I'm not so much debating who's results are working in the realm of the "greater good", just that Rick/Shane are different.

    Would we agree Rick has been mostly a selfless character? And Shane a selfish character?

    Because if that's the case then they are opposing spectrums even if they met in the middle on decisions.

    Lori did mind**** him and no, I don't think it was intentional, but she wasn't the brightest bulb around in that scenario and couldn't read what he was going through. In a way they were a perfect match, they had a lot in common.

    Shane's a grey character, like most everyone else. He isn't bad or evil, nor did many of the things he did register as "realistically bad" in the context. But he lost his mind in the end over multiple variables, namely Lori and ended up being both the first to wise up quickest and mentally burn out quickest in the original group.


    Right, the old ways are gone and they live in a brutal reality, I know what Shane meant in that quote, but I'm talking specifically about where we are up to Season 6 in TWD universe. Shane before he finally snapped was a good guy in ZA standards, Rick at that point was slightly delusional(not like Morgan or Dale), Rick now by the current realities standards is a definite "good guy".

    We've seen many instances of what a bad guy is on the show and I don't even think Rick is in the center of good/bad, he's mostly good and his actions have proved it. All the guy does is try to defend his people and sticks his neck out for them to great lengths and personal risk repeatedly.

    If Rick were a soldier defending his home nation from outside invasion and his actions were similar to that of what he's done in TWD he'd be considered a hero and a good guy, with the exception being deluded pacifists not approving.

    We can, because he has forced them on others. We fault people today for forcing outdated religious morals on others, sometimes by force, sometimes by brutal force. I equate that to Morgan forcing the unintended consequences on everyone via his deception and total adherence to it over rationalism.

    There's having rational morals, which you can't fault someone for and then there's all we've described of Morgan, which then extends into immorality.

    His morals, his mentality and his sense of self have warped into something very bad and negative, that he himself recognizes yet still goes through the motions.
     
  11. J K

    J K Member

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    [video]https://youtu.be/pFvIdTbaMhA[/video]
     
  12. drifter77

    drifter77 Member

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    Morgan has certainly become a polarizing figure. Possibly what the writers were going for. You've got the staunch Morgan Apologists versus the Kill Morgans.

    My main issue with Morgan is that he is holding fast to a philosophy that even he admits is endangering many lives. It's quite selfish in a way. He believes this philosophy keeps him sane, with zero regard to the collateral damage that causes. I guess it's okay if 20, 30, or more people die as long as Morgan keeps his marbles.
     
  13. steenkash

    steenkash Member

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    Morgan's philosophy is flawed. If 'all life is precious' then why does he knowingly let a psychotic killer live, one who is bound to take more 'precious' lives? I cannot stand Morgan at this point, his self-righteous face makes me want to deck him with a gun.
     
  14. Shane357

    Shane357 Active Member

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    I've already said multiple times that he needs to realise this. Yes he is trying to do the greater good and yes he is invested init (mostly) for himself.
    Yes he wrongly assumed this. However while not the same as Morgan he exhibits many similar behaviours. I did not say that they were the same, just that they were similar. But yeah, Tyreese's ethics are slightly different than Morgan

    Like I've said before, I do not think Morgan's actions are right. Nor do I think heshould have anything to do with the wolves. His actions are wrong and he is delusional in his all life is precious thing.

    How was Rick completely selfless in these situations compared to Shane?

    I'm not trying to cause any trouble, I'm just asking a question.
    However stupid Rick was, it was realistic for a man like him. Don't forget that he kind of "slept through" (for lack of better word) the initial apocalypse, while Shane had to deal with it from the start. He had to lead a group straight from the beginning as well as other things. They were both realistic characters given their situations.
    Shane and Rick are different, but only by a little. However I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Shane has made a few selfish decisions. That's true. However he's also saved other members of the group besides Lori and Carl (notably Rick) such as Glenn on the highway, as well as other members of the group, demonstrating that he's motivated by something other than (just)his own desires. Same with Rick.

    One difference is that Rick has a bigger support group, as well as better buttkissing skills. Shane was a bad leader. He needed to coddle the group better - to make them feel good about themselves no matter how stupid they behaved. Even Andrea has said that he makes the right calls but needs to work on his social graces.
    I agree that Shane made a few bad decisions. However that said I disagree with you that he wasn't smart. Rick may have made better decisions on occasion (albeit after his death) but Shane was no dummy. He made a few bad decisions but he wasn't dumb as people make him out to be.

    On that scene by the windmill, Shane was preparing leave the situation entirely. He was in a emotionally damaged mental state due to the guilt of not living up to his best friend's expectations as well as Lori's constant mixed signals. In my opinion he was getting ready to leave the whole situation. Then Lori came along and stuck her tail in his face.

    If she didn't know what she was doing due to her own feelings toward him and not being able to control herself, that's just as bad. She knew he was in a fragile mental state but had that conversation with him anyway.

    Yes, Shane is a grey-area character, though I believe he was trying his best to be the "good guy" in the new world. He adapted morals to apply to the new world faster than everyone else, and that scene where he tells Rick "You have no idea what I can live with... what I live with!" reminds me that he did bad things but they were made for the greater good. He's not 100% innocent, and I haven't said he was, but by the world they lived in and it's standards, he's mostly good.

    Yeah. I never said he wasnt. Just that Shane and him aren't so different.
    Right, this is what Shane did. He repeatedly made decisions with the group's best interests, even though he made a few mistakes, I don't think he was a "bad guy".
    Right, this is what I'm saying. All I'm trying to argue is that Rick and Shane are not so different (look at the Shane thread for more examples) and that Rick only has a few major differences.
    You misunderstood. I said we can't blame Morgan for having morals, not that we can't lame him for forcing them on others.

    I think Morgan is delusional, yes; I believe he should have nothing to do with the wolves.

    However I also think he needs help with it. Rick (as his old friend) has no idea what he went through, with the PSTD and all. One of the risk factors in that disorder include lack of support from others. Carol, unless she breaks in front of Morgan (possible but unlikely given their relationship), is unlikely to pitch in.
     
    #114 Shane357, Dec 7, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2015
  15. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    That's how I see it and how they alluded to Morgan seeing it in the meeting, which is why I insist that his intentions are not for "good" or the "greater good", just for himself alone.

    Morgan apologists exhibit quite a bit of delusion themselves, it must be due to being able to relate to a severely deluded character.

    Personally, I can only identify with characters trying their best to do what's best for their group and survive.
     
  16. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    All right - Well the only point I have is that the ethics of them are very different and that the ethics also go hand in hand with the philosophy. Morgan has a quasi-religious reverence to his stuff and Tyreese was just a lost guy who didn't have it in him to pull the trigger. His ideals were more soft than hostile, which Morgan's stuff is hostile under the guise of what it pretends to be.


    I hadn't seen some S1 and first half of S2 episodes in a while and had forgotten a few details and stuff displayed by Shane initially. I rewatched some of them over the last few days.

    In S1 to most of S2, Rick was no more selfless than Shane, perhaps even less so you could argue because Shane stuck his neck out big during that time. But then when things evolve and Shane starts mentally burning out, it's when he becomes self motivated, perhaps coming to realization of the pointlessness of the situation he finds himself in mixed with the Lori situation.

    That's what I was remembering and talking about mainly and then what I was talking about with Rick is as a general consistency from S1-current, he's been a mostly selfless character and hasn't yet fallen into an area of purely self motivation like Shane did in the end of S2 and under a far longer amount of time and far more extreme circumstances.

    There's no trouble, I like debating. Unless someone is posting completely absurd nonsense like Morgan apologists do. lol.

    It was realistic, certainly.

    Social and leadership skills being on opposite sides for both are a major difference. One of many.

    He isn't dumb and he quickly rose up to be the rational voice in the group initially, amidst a group that was not yet ready for rationality as it evolved to the apocalypse, but we have to judge them on their overall track record.

    His decisions with the Randall thing and plan to lure Rick cost him everything. That decision, as well as continuing to allow Lori to mentally fester in his head to the extent of assisting in his mental degradation is why we can't call him "smart".

    But I am not saying any of the characters are stone cold ice or geniuses, but truly well rounded smart people are able to hold onto their feelings and mind better than he did. Rick has had ups and downs but he's held it together under far more extreme circumstances with bigger decisions having to be made.

    Haha, yeah... Lori was foul with Shane. But as if to really exhibit why I think he's not smart is how much he allowed her to affect him. This is how people generally act though, so it's not that deep of a criticism. The criticism is just that he went too far.

    Better question - Do you really think he was going to leave? I've seen people say good points to him just posturing that he was going to leave. Either way, she should have allowed him to go.

    I can agree with all of this, I think his intentions were really conflicted there. I think possibly he could have even been brought back and what he was doing was similar to Rick's meltdown at the prison.

    However, I'm also fine with Rick's decision given that Shane showed himself to be a liability, a pressing one at that moment and last few episodes.

    We both agree that neither are "bad guys". "Bad guys" are very explicitly shown to be the shows villains and they are some of the more depraved maniacs in TV history. :D

    The major differences are major though. Leadership skills, consistent selfless motivation, to date still giving people a chance and retaining some humanist quality and mental fortitude. Very different people all together and the similarities are just basic stuff for the Apocalypse that I'd say a lot of the main group displays now.

    I'm also only comparing the memorable S2 shaved head Shane to current Rick, not their previous incarnations.

    I didn't misunderstand, I think you misunderstood what I meant. What I meant was we can criticize those for holding onto morals that require them to force it on others, which is what Morgan has. We can't criticize them for merely having the broad term "morals", but we can criticize "extremist morals" like Morgan and Eastman have, which urge them both to force them on others and in Morgan's case, to the detriment of his companions.

    And in the end and by reasonable standards, he doesn't really have much in the way of "morals" to stand on.

    At this point it would be quite a waste of time and resources to try to redeem Morgan. He's really a unique character in the depth of his ****ed up nature.

    Bringing back Shane would have been 20x easier than getting Morgan "stable" and "logical".

    So, the best choice IMO is execution.
     
  17. surviving

    surviving Well-Known Member

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    As I have said I haven’t missed any details. I deal in facts.
    Glenn and Maggie fired at the Woodburian’s feet. Their only intent was to drive them. “Get the hell out of here” The only causality was when Carl killed the young boy during the first assault. Driving the Woodburians away was the same thing Morgan did at the ASZ with the five Wolves.
    Glenn’s desire to go kill the Governor was an emotional response which I don’t think he would have been able to carry out even given the chance to.
    No, Rick killed most of the Terminites. Rick wanted to go back and kill the rest of them, but none of the rest of group wanted too. Correct conclusion by Rick, wrong decision by group with Glenn’s support. When Rick and group were executing Garth and co. Glenn, Maggie and Tara stood back and look on in disbelief and horror at their actions.
    Mutinous
    1a : disposed to or being in a state of mutiny : rebellious <a mutinous crew> b : turbulent, unruly 2: of, relating to, or constituting mutiny <mutinous threats>
    Neither Glenn nor Morgan have been a mutinous force. Carol is intent on killing Morgan to be able to kill the Wolf. Morgan was defending himself.



    You make an assumption here as we have yet to see Glenn take another life.


    Yes, you are criticizing him for his decision not killing the Wolf. I do not see how Morgan has betrayed any of the group. He has withheld information from the group same as Rick did when he didn’t tell the group that everyone is infected and turns no matter how you die until after the farm. It seems we have a lot of double standards here.
     
  18. Shane357

    Shane357 Active Member

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    I guess I agree with you here.

    However I'm almost certain there was a member of the group who tried not to kill or let the group kill.
    I think I've said something like this in another thread, so I'll just quote it here:
    So yes, I would agree that he became a little unhinged off the end, and his suicide-by-cop only had Lori and Carl's best interests (and Rick's by forcing him to step up, I guess) but for the majority of it he did make the best calls for the group.

    That's cool, I like debating too. Thanks!
    Yes. Shane's lack of these skills played a part in his downfall. He made the right calls but made the wrong presentation.

    I don't think Shane wanted to kill Rick. He had so many chances to but he did not pull the trigger.His original plan was to let Randall free and kill him in the woods, and then I think he might have considered it, but when it came down to it, where you said you think he may have been coming around, he realised he couldn't do this. I think that moment was a crucial change in Rick's personality.

    (Also in an interview Jon Bernthal mentioned that Shane's weapon in the end had no bullets and he was doing "suicide by cop".)
    He did attempt to back off. Then she kept stepping in his face and messing with his head. Shane was already starting to get mentally unhinged (especially after the Otis thing). She kept pushing it into his head. This doesn't mean he made the right call with her there(he didn't),just that with the situation he had didn't really help him out.
    Yeah. Shane had his mistakes. He is a grey area character. I like flawed characters,man, what can I say? I think I can understand why he made some of the decisions he made, and some of them I don't agree with, but I can understand why he did what he did.
    If we're talking straight here (no Lori interference), yes.
    Shane was ready to leave in Season 2 Episode 1 as he told Lori. She told him then that it was best for the group despite criticising his decision("You're not even going to tell Rick?!")

    He stayed a bit longer because they needed the medical supplies for Carl. Then after he comes back with the medical supplies Lori suddenly tells him to stay. One episode later Shane approaches Lori to ask if she really meant what she said. She tells him again that he should not leave. Sometime later she tells him that the baby is not his. Then in Season 2 Episode 12 she tells him she doesn't even know who's baby it is. (Aside from her previous "stay/leave/stay away from me and my family" garbage this is one of her biggest mistakes. Shane was to starting to understand the message after 18 Miles Out. In my opinion she should have just left it.)

    Also Shanesays to Andrea in season 2 episode 9: "I should've left with you when I had the chance."
    I agree with you on this: Rick's hands were pretty much clean. Lori put the idea into his head and set the wheel in motion, so she had no right to act disgusted after he actually went through with it.
    Such as the Governor, Gareth, etc.(Hated the characters as people but they were well-played.)
    yes, I've already admitted that Shane was a bad leader. He was a good person to have in the group though. Just no Lori.

    I believe
    was a crucial change in Shane's personality. In the later episodes you can see how hurt he is because of it (however necesaary) and the effects it had on him.

    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I can't exactly remember a time where Rick was in a situation like Shane was with Otis. (I can definitely understand why Shane had to kill him was /justified/ in its own way, but the effect it had on him afterwards is also very much understandable.)
    Ah, okay. In that case, I agree with you.
    It's tough to see Morgan go this way, especially after the amazing character he used to be that fans went crazy over every time he made an appearance.

    I wish Shane would make a comeback in a flashback. I miss his character.

     
    #118 Shane357, Dec 9, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
  19. Zvivor

    Zvivor Well-Known Member

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    Lonut and Shane357: What a great discussion the two of you had about Shane, Rick and Morgan.
     
  20. Zvivor

    Zvivor Well-Known Member

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    I have a simple view of Morgan: He is still crazy. Before Eastman, he was kill-everybody crazy; After Eastman (a man who slowly tortured another to death over 47 days-deserved or not), Morgan is kill-nobody crazy. What Rick et. al. should do about him now? Hard to say. Crazy though he is, they are in dire straits. Morgan is a good fighter who helped stave off the wolves initial attack. They need good fighters.

    I am looking forward to seeing whether after what everyone suspects Negan and his crowd are going to do, Morgan (if he survives) will still think all life is precious, even if that life threatens yours and those you love.
     
    #120 Zvivor, Dec 9, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015

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