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My honest opinion on Hershel in the finale

Discussion in 'Episode 416 - A' started by HondaS2kXD, May 9, 2014.

  1. HondaS2kXD

    HondaS2kXD Well-Known Member

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    I really like Hershel. He's a great guy, doing everything he does with the absolute best intentions. As a person, he's one of my absolute favorite characters. But, to quote dr. Grant from Jurassic park, some of the worst things imaginable have been done with the best intentions.

    Hershel held strong to his pre-apocalypse morals. He didn't let the changing world change him. He stood strong and held fast to his humanity. It's noble. Admirable. But it can be fatal. And in his case, it was.

    At the end of season 3, Hershel was shocked at Carl when he killed jody. And it shocked him to the point where he sought out to change both Carl and Rick in between seasons. Have them attempt to live peacefully. Leave the gun at home. Trade it for a shovel. And with it, discard their brutal sides.

    Slowly, Rick accepted this way of thinking. He, too, was concerned at how cold Carl had become, and so decided he would try a bit of Hershel's medicine. Have Carl farm a bit. More as a symbol than anything else, leave the gun at home and just farm away. But then this seed of an idea took hold. The basic idea was to pull Carl back from the edge-- teach him that violence shouldn't be so easy, and even if you have to take a life in self defense, you're still taking a life. But then that idea grew like a weed. It went from "violence shouldn't be so easy" to "all violence is bad." Rick drank all the kool-aid, and asked for seconds. Carl, on the other hand, was more two-sided about it. He wanted to make his dad proud. Wanted to do what he wanted. And, as he told michonne in the finale, he tried. But deep down, Carl maintained his brutal side. And it showed as Too Far Gone approached. Rick wanted to keep carl sheltered. Carl wanted to do his part. "Don't fire it unless you need to," vs. "but you know I might need to, right?"

    Finally, one eye Bri showed up with a tank. And here is where all of this comes to a point. Hershel and Rick were ready to negotiate with the governor. Carl wanted to shoot the governor dead before he even retrieved the sword. And while that may not seem like the best idea, consider this: what ended up happening was, after seeing a loved one BEHEADED before their eyes, team prison opened fire-- in an extremely emotional state. They couldn't hit a damn thing for the most part. i'd be surprised if Beth could hit the friggin' tank. But if they had fired when Carl wanted to, it would have been with steady aim, on their own terms, likely all at about the same time. And it would have given them the advantages of both first shot and extreme violence of action. The governor's militia wouldn't know what hit them. Each one of team prison would have at least two aimed shots off before any of the militia could've gotten their guns up. In short, not only might they still be at the prison, I'd put money on Hershel still being alive.

    Basically what I'm trying to say is, the Hershel flashbacks SHOULD have made me realize how much I miss Hershel. Which I do-- as I said I loved his character and I think he's a great guy. But that wasnt the effect the flashbacks had on me. They flat-out pissed me off. As a result of Hershel's misguided good intentions, not only were they hopeless against the governor, but right now Carl thinks he's a monster simply because he knows what needs to be done. I understand he needs to have a conscience, and killing shouldn't be as easy for him as it was in the s3 finale. But instead of being "too far gone," now Carl is "too far come-back." Rather than simply keeping him on the straight and narrow, Carl's shiny new humanity is torturing him for even THINKING about doing what needs to be done. And I blame Hershel. Sorry, but I do.
     
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  2. Gaycandybacon

    Gaycandybacon Well-Known Member

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    I liked the one flashback where he wakes Rick up, and when he said "It could always be like this" then they switched back to where they were in the Railcar. I LOVED that.

    They prolly could of did without the flashbacks, but honestly it didn't derail the episode for me imo.
     
  3. Dnae

    Dnae Well-Known Member

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    I always enjoy and appreciate a well thought out post. They tend to stop me in my tracks and nudge me to consider a different viewpoint. Tonight you left me with just that, food for thought.
     
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  4. HondaS2kXD

    HondaS2kXD Well-Known Member

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    I liked the flashbacks themselves. It was showing that Rick had come full circle. He'd tried to set down his brutality, and come back from the things he'd done, but in the end realized that in fact you NEED that brutality in this world, and you can never fully come back. Now he needs to let Carl know its ok, too.

    So, I liked the flashbacks... I just didn't like the way they had Hershel act in them. He went from "one of the deciding factors in Rick's farmer phase" to "the absolute driving force behind rick's farmer phase."

    Thanks.
     
  5. slyd00d

    slyd00d Active Member

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    Great thread, not often I bother reading an entire post that long so it was well said.

    I thought that Hershel was the biggest influence and definitely the absolute driving force behind Rick's farmer phase, after Lori died there wasn't anyone else pushing him so hard to be a pacifist. What makes you think Hershel played a smaller role?
     
  6. Gaycandybacon

    Gaycandybacon Well-Known Member

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    Ya I think Hershel wanted to make him step back, but instead, all the way back by accident. Like exactly what Carol said, you can be more than just a Farmer, which basicly all he wanted to do most of the days. Hershel even wanted Rick to keep his gun with him at all times, go to council meetings and such.

    For Carl I think Michonne really changed him, not his Dad, not Hershel, I think having that relationship really made him let out all his emotions, which were held in check since S3 finale up until the switch flipped this season, then again when they were reunited in the backhalf of S4. There is so much back and forth with Rick and Carl. And you're right it's time for Carl to stay in one mindset like Rick is right now.
     
  7. HondaS2kXD

    HondaS2kXD Well-Known Member

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    I agree on Hershel, but I'm not so sure about michonne and Carl. I think she is definitely helping him, and bringing his emotions to the surface, but they have always been there. Way back in the beginning of the season, there's that scene where carl asks for his gun back and then he says something like, "sorry... I'm trying," and Rick says, "I know, I'm proud." And you can see it in his face: he knows that deep down he's still just as brutal as ever. So, his father is proud of the man he thinks Carl has become, but Carl knows its all just been an act. The reason he was able to open up to michonne about it was his relevant "thoughts" the night before: he wanted to help his dad gut that fat bastard.

    But it's not really about one mindset or the other. They both have to exist at the same time. If you go fully brutal and discard your humanity, you become a Shane or a Governor. You need your humanity just as much as your brutality. But the trick is to have the two sides working in harmony with each other, rather than clashing with each other-- that will tear you apart. Right now, Carl's two sides are clashing. His brutal side thinks the good man is a laughable notion in this world. His good side thinks he's become a monster and he hates himself for it. This will be a big theme of season 5, I think. 4 was about Rick coming to terms with needing that brutality. 5 will be about striking the balance-- how do you remain a good man in spite of your brutality?


    Thanks.

    Like bacon said, Hershel wanted Rick to introduce a little moderation. Leaving the guns behind was just to put the idea into their heads. In the end, even Hershel was saying Rick should take his gun with him and sit in on the council meetings. And he was ok with Carl having the gun, as long as he exercised restraint. It's like Inception-- Hershel planted the idea, but it grew in rick's mind to an extent that he hadn't intended.
     
    #7 HondaS2kXD, May 10, 2014
    Last edited: May 10, 2014
  8. Gaycandybacon

    Gaycandybacon Well-Known Member

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    I hope that balance comes cause there's to much back and forth in S3/4
     
  9. HondaS2kXD

    HondaS2kXD Well-Known Member

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    I think they will. Quite early on, actually.

    Right now, Rick has come to terms with both sides of himself-- he's learned to live with both sides in harmony. He knows he's a good man, but one who is willing to do whatever it takes to protect the ones he loves. So he's fine.

    Carl, on the other hand, is not. In reality, he is a good man. We know this. But he is so conflicted about his dark side that he believes he's a monster. And I think that, sitting in that train car, he will for a while go darker than he ever has. He will accept himself as a monster-- if that's what it takes to survive. And I think that something will happen that causes him to unleash the full monster on the termites. I have a few different theories. Perhaps they kill (or make us think they do) Judith, and he's out for revenge. Maybe Gareth tries to turn him, and he is enraged by it. Perhaps it is just his next logical step after believing himself to be a monster for so long. But the main point being, Carl kills a ton of termites. And does it coldly and without showing any remorse. Showing. At night, he sneaks off and cries. He knows the termites needed to die... But is still conflicted about having done it. Eventually Rick and Carl have their talks from issue 67 of the comics. Rick will help carl come to terms with the fact that he is in fact a good man-- just one who is willing to do whatever it takes to protect himself and his loved ones. And then we will have the ultimate version of Carl: the strongest humanity, the closest with his father, and the most badass he's ever been, all at the same time.
     
  10. Gaycandybacon

    Gaycandybacon Well-Known Member

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    Good stuff good stuff man. I really like how you're into Carls character. Never seen that before.


    Just from the tweet from his dad I think we'll get a strong performance from Riggs in Terminus. Another transformation like in A with Rick.
     
  11. Cheria

    Cheria Well-Known Member

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    OMG what a beautiful statement you wrote down there♫ Very true to Hershel's character♫ And i like the fact that you mentioned Beth in your statement♪ Don't worry, i'm sure Beth will fix her father's mistake in the future♫ She is, after all, going to be the new moral compass♥
     
  12. HondaS2kXD

    HondaS2kXD Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'm a Carl fan. I mean, I "like" almost all the characters. And Daryl and Rick are both right up there with Carl, but Carl is my favorite. I just think he's a more complex and interesting character than people realize. And if they follow the comics, he will become even more badass than he already is. By far.

    [on that topic, extreme comic spoilers ahead, so don't read this next bit, especially if you are TheWalking Horn.]

    And yeah, I know about riggs' tweet. Guessing something crazy happens. Like, really crazy. If I had to guess I'd say either carl plays a big role in the terminus escape, or he does something... shocking. In the comics, carl comes to terms with his dark side after he confesses to having taken Carol's role from the lizzie storyline. After confessing, he and Rick have a talk about it, and the upshot is that because he fears his dark side, it means he's in control of it, and therefore he is a good man-- just a good man willing to do what's necessary. like rick is now. My guess is he does something similar in the show. Something that needs to be done, but is still so brutal that it would cause him some notable weight on his conscience later. My best guess is he kills a number of unarmed and/or surrendering termites-- the thought being that just like Dan, they deserved it.

    Is there any conversation you can't turn into a Beth conversation?

    But I wouldn't say she will be the new moral compass. I'd say she's with the compass right now, though: father Gabriel. I think she will continue to be a good, optimistic person... But she's too young and has been too quiet (aside from when she won't stop ****ing singing) to suddenly become the moral compass.

    I DO think, however, she will become a more prominent member of the group. And maybe become more combat-effective. Perhaps filling Andrea's sniper role from the comics. It'll be her, rosita, or Tara. Some people have guessed Carol, but we saw in the s3 opener, and can't shoot worth shit.
     
  13. Kingston50

    Kingston50 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Hershel is responsible for Carl seeing himself as a monster. I think a lot of who Carl is comes from Rick. He is his father's son and he is hard on himself just like Rick is. I think Carl has a dark side just like Rick and if it wasn't for Hershel's intervention I believe that both of them would have spiraled out of control.

    Farming was Hershel's way of getting Rick to focus on his son. It was his way of getting Rick to maintain some semblance of normalcy which was needed at the time. It was therapy for them. Rick was losing himself in keeping the group alive daily and Carl was losing his humanity, slipping away becoming this ice cold child soldier. It was Hershel's way of bring them both back to earth. Establishing a safe zone for them to be father and son, learn from each other without being marred by the harsh reality they face everyday. With time I think that Carl will learn how to keep his brutal side in balance and harmony with his good side, just like his father. He won't have to fear becoming a monster.

    I don't think Hershel meant for Rick to give up his leadership role and become this pacifist. He is the one who urged Rick to keep his gun with him at all times so no question about it Hershel knew the world is still dangerous. I think the council was established in the mean time to give Rick some space to heal. I think everyone wanted him to be the leader again, especially Hershel. Rick just got comfortable with being the farmer, but when the time came he assumed the leadership again and gave Carl back his gun.

    About Hershel's death... I think Hershel knew he was going to die. Hence that smile that he gave Rick. It was like a proud father that sees the rewards of what he taught his son. Hershel saw that Rick finally realizes all the lessons he was trying to teach him all along. That smile was Hershel's farewell because he knows his daughters are in good hands and he knows the group are in good hands. I don't think Carl picking the Governor off with a bullet would have saved Hershel. I think he would have died that day regardless. If not by the Governor than probably in the crossfire or being eaten by Walkers. He was ready.
     
    #13 Kingston50, May 10, 2014
    Last edited: May 10, 2014
  14. Zvivor

    Zvivor Well-Known Member

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    This is well thought out and I completely agree (except that I never liked Hershel very much). However, throughout Season 4 everyone was blaming Rick for dropping out and in the flashbacks, we see it was Hershel's doing. Now here's the thing: if you're going to have your chief tactician and defender step down, then somebody else needs to step up and deal with the threats they face. Nobody did. Council or no council, there was total complacency, irresponsible lack of preparedness and no foresight. No effective lookouts (or they would have known Lizze was feeding rats to walkers), no scouts to see if herds are around or maurauders are around; nobody other than Michonne searching for the Gov; no keeping the suppies in stock; nobody farming but Rick & Carl. Heck, Hershel and Michonne got caught by the Governor because they were goofing around outside the gates -- they could have just as easily been bitten or swarmed by a small group of walkers. And the coup -- thinking and counseling that you can deal with a madman, much less a madman who has already murdered everyone who was under his leadership in a fit of anger. That was Hershel's guidance. To my way of thinking, well-meaning or otherwise, Hershel's foolish guidance was more destructive to Team Prison than if he had actually been a traitor. That doesn't mean he did it on purpose; it means the "Nevil Chamberlain" style of leadership can be deadly and dangerous to the followers of a leader who does not see the dangers in the world for what they are.

    Have to add: in retrospect to Season 3 & 4, I think the writing was super brilliant to create the same result for the followers of a psycho madman (two groups of them) and a well-meaning but weak and naive leader. I wonder if Kirkman, or Gimple, or someone on the writing team is a major student of history.
     
  15. Cheria

    Cheria Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you♫ Maybe it's too early for her to be a moral compass♪ Since she's gonna live until the end, they might as well grow her character slowly rather than just suddenly giving her the moral compass title♫ She's slowly gonna learn how to be a moral compass from the other main characters, and when her teachers die, that's when she will slowly grow, becoming the permanent moral compass♫ Long Live Beth, the soon-to-be Moral Compass!♫
     
  16. HondaS2kXD

    HondaS2kXD Well-Known Member

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    Excellent post.

    Like I said, I think Hershel had the best intentions. The goal was to pull Carl back from the edge. But it was his insinuation that Carl "gunned that kid down," that I have a problem with. I think jody was going to make a move. I think if carl hadnt fired when he did, jody would've used him as a human shield and then killed them all.

    If Hershel had said, "look, I think your son did what needed to be done... But he's becoming too cold. Killing can't be that easy." That would've been much better. But the idea that Carl had developed a bloodlust and was simply happy to kill somebody sets up the wrong ideas. The farming and father and son time was good. They should have time together and become closer. But taking his gun away, not letting him help the group, and the emphasizing on avoiding violence at all costs went too far.

    The ideal solution would've been for Rick to give Carl the talk they had in the comics-- discussing outright the difference between good and evil in this brutal world. He should've told carl that while it is necessary at times to take a life, it shouldn't be so easy for them to do so. That, along with some good ol' father and son time would have sorted things out. But not just father and son farming time. He should have been allowed to help the group-- it's what he's wanted since season 2.
     
  17. Kingston50

    Kingston50 Well-Known Member

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    I don't get the notion that Hershel's guidance led to the assault on Team Prison. Hershel's intentions was not for Rick to lay down his weapon and never pick it up again. He knew that the world is a dangerous place and the Governor's whereabouts was still unknown hence why he urged Rick to take his gun with him everywhere he went. Hershel just wanted Rick to be fully rehabilitated to take on the role of leadership more effectively. That was the significance of farming. Not only did they need to grow their own produce because that pantry of prison food was not going to last them, but farming was also therapeutic for Rick and Carl. After Lori's death, Glenn and Maggie's kidnapping, them having having to rescue Glenn and Maggie, dealing with Merle, the first assault on the prison, Andrea's death, I don't think it left much time for Rick to recover. He was in dire need of rest and recuperation.

    The council was set up to oversee the decisions so once Rick was done rehabilitating he could take back the reigns of leadership. Its not Hershel's fault or Rick's fault that the Governor was a complete lunatic hellbent on destroying them. In part, I think some of this is due to poor writing. I definitely think that they should have had an evac plan that consisted of more than a runaway bus. The writers were clearly not applying realistic disaster scenarios to this show. Anyone who just experienced what these group of people went through would have had a evac plan ready just in case something was to happen again. The writing is to blame more than anything...
     
    #17 Kingston50, May 10, 2014
    Last edited: May 10, 2014
  18. Gaycandybacon

    Gaycandybacon Well-Known Member

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    I think the evac plan was good enough for what it was. Plus the night before they had all that shit happen in the prison, just coming back from the run and stuff with Derle, Michonne, Bob and Ty. Tons of people were sick/still recovering. Cleaning up the mess, prolly all the cars and stuff was messed up. Everyone was trying to settle in after all of that crap, then boom the Governor shows up.

    Only thing I would say they should of done better was pick a location for everyone to meet up if something like this happened. That was prolly the complete fail of it all.
     
  19. offrope

    offrope Active Member

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    I agree with this. But part of the storyline of Randall was to show how hard of a time Rick had with killing a live person. He couldn't pull the trigger when Carl walked in the first time, then he saved Randall from walkers rather than abandoning him the second time, and finally Shane released him from the barn and killed him. Carl already had the lesson that it is, and should be, a difficult decision to kill a person.
     
  20. Suedeanthracite

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    Being a big fan of Hershel, I truly love this thread. Thanks for starting it and for the very interesting responses. It's nice to see there can be constructive disagreement that actually makes me re-think some of my own impressions of Hershel and his effect on both Rick and Carl.
     

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