You aren't wrong here, but I'm just saying it was overdone. We could have gotten that exact same message without the useless scenes. We would have gotten that message from all the other things which were slightly more relevant such as Carl eating an entire can of pudding or going for a stroll with his walker buddies. At the same time though, there wasn't a lot happening with Michonne so maybe having one wandering scene should have been fine rather than the 3 or 4 it gave us before she snapped.

If thats the case then we will get a pretty shallow look at those characters comparatively but I'll save the comments about next weeks episode for when I've actually seen it lol. I still think we should get to know some other supporting characters better rather than this inane focus on Rick, Carl and Michonne. Rick and Carl are understandable as they are pretty much the only "invincible" characters (the other seeming to be Daryl) but Michonne is one of a few lead supports. It might have been nice to see how Carol is doing or see what Bob and Sasha are doing (who personally I think are two of the most interesting characters right now) and get to see them develop a bit more, especially as this would further reinforce bobs theory of being cursed.

Yeah, in Season 3 which chronologically was about 8 months ago. Its not relevant anymore, if Rick started hallucinating Lori again then everyone would be up in arms. Claiming that the problem was in S3 so its still relevant is just wrong. This season Carl has been faithfully following his Dads lead, not complaining about not having a gun, not trying to shoot the gov, those sorts of things. To have him get really frustrated at his dad and then have it resolved in the same episode is poor writing of a style which is just used to fill space.

I disagree. I think Ricks reaction was perfect as was Michonnes but Carl didn't get one. I think Carl seeing Michonne would have emphasised the point of their solitude much better than Carl spending 15 seconds in a kitchen grabbing pudding.

 

This could have been done some other time, but they wanted to do the Volume 9 of the comics which just features these 3 characters, having more characters would have changed the vibe they were going for.

I love the episode and have no problems with it, but I do get some of the complaints.

I think the problem was the change in Execute Producer. Mazzara deviated from the comics so much last year that he was telling these stories already, but in his own way. So now that Gimple wants to stay closer to the comics, Carl's development may seem weird. He was so apt in S3, Kirkman had to revert him in this episode to make him incompetent when he shouldn't be at this point anymore. This episode could had worked more (for some people) if it had been shown in the beginning of season 3.

They did regress him. He was so obedient and responsible and respectful to Rick in S4A (and an amazing shot) now he's back to being the moody kid from the S3 finale, and is shooting at the ceiling. lol

They wanted to do the Volume 9, because that comes after the fall of the prison, but Comic Carl is still afraid and incompetent there, where TV Carl was passed beyond that point.

Now that they're done with these parts of Vol. 9 they can have Carl go back to the boy he was in S4A.

I personally love the episode though, but you have valid points in your frustrations.

 

You're right. The baby should of been white

 

Yeah, the baby didn't quite look like either one...but whatever, The funny thing about Michonne's baby was the weird look it was giving to the man talking.... The baby had a look on it's face like " Man u are talking some crazy shit"..

 

I just don't see the scene of Carl finding the can of pudding as a waste, it was a small moment of triumph for him before his big failure -- it was the setup that allowed the payoff shot of Carl eating the pudding. The scenes with Michonne were necessary to show her going from "I can do this on my own", to "can I do this?", to "I can't do this" and culminating in her going "I won't do this".

I don't think tonight's episode has to be a shallow look at the other characters, just a look at them under different circumstances.

Welcome to the reality of a weekly 42 minute TV show. We will see what the other characters have been doing with differing amounts of time spent on each, whether your favourites or mine get the amount of screen time we'd like isn't up to us. There was an appropriate amount of time spend on Michonne, a character who's been on the show for a season and a half and we really knew very little about her -- it was about time she got some exposition.

You first complained that Carl's outburst came out of nowhere and then you discard the start of the buildup because it was too long ago? Between seasons Rick took Carl's gun away from him and reestablished his parental role putting Carl in a subservient position. In the first half of season 4 Carl isn't blowing up at Rick because (like Rick) he's not overly demonstrative. The fall of the prison and the loss of Judith and everyone else finally pushed Carl over the edge and he explodes on Rick. He then, basically, runs away from home only to learn that he still needs home and still needs Rick. When Rick starts coming out of his comma and Carl can't bring himself to shoot him and he thinks he's all alone in the world he hits rock bottom, gives up and commits suicide -- the only reason it doesn't work is because Rick isn't a walker. I see a complex interplay between two people each faced with great loss and I guess I just disagree that it's poor writing style.

As I said I think it would be gratuitous, what are we going to see? Carl running to hug Michonne, pressing his head against her breast and saying "That's just a gun in my pocket!"? Rick's line that "It's for you" tells us in three words that things are going to be OK, that things are going to work out, that they haven't lost everything and that they will be able to get back what they've lost. We've already seen that Carl is coming back from the abyss of disrepair, seeing him happy to see Michonne isn't going to add anything other than give the episode a sappy ending.

 

Now that I think about it so would i :zombies_lol: But you still shouldn't dislike something because you don't like it. But I see you're a Carl hater?

 

I really like your view on this.

I must confess, I was looking forward to seeing Michonne and Carl hug, ;D but I do agree that from the show's perspective, that would had been, maybe, too cheesy at that point. Maybe they did film it (I heard directors film things and decide what looks best for the episode once it airs).

Still looking forward to the Michonne/Carl dynamic!

 

Thats one way to put it... The other is that us seeing him collect a kitchen stool just so he can grab something from the top shelf is completely pointless and could have been better spent. Admittedly this point like most of the others is an opinion and its nigh on impossible to prove an opinion wrong (But yours is! Jk). As for Michonne, pretty much the same thing. You can say that there were some deep character messages going on or you can say that watching someone wander through a forest completely expressionless is a waste of time.

Well... These two contradict each other a little...
Anyhoo im not saying that my favourites should get more time, im just saying that a character of equal status to a bunch of others shouldnt get 3x the screen time. Its just silly. Although [MENTION=26732]lulu_nueve[/MENTION] your point about the comics does make some sense from a fan point of view.

Nope, you have me wrong.
I wasn't saying it came out of no where as much as I was saying the problem hadn't been shown (even if that sounds like the same thing... I probably need to explain myself better somehow). Episodes 1-8 had Carl being obedient and not questioning his dad. Episode 9 has him being a moody teenager trying to hurt his dad however possible and blaming him for everything. Now it makes perfect sense character wise that this might happen. Im not disagreeing with that. My problem is that the key problem in this episode is also resolved in this episode. We didn't have Carl consistently disagreeing with his dad. We didn't once have him acting like a moody teenager. Instead we just got him being angry followed by him regretting it in the exact same episode which is the style of writing in sitcoms. That didnt happen in S1 or S2 or S3. All the problems were ongoing and intertwining rather than a "one problem at a time" mentality. I don't have an issue with the characters here, just the writing although I do agree that Rick and Carls conversations were fantastic and that particular writing was good.

Really? You can see meaning in Carl hunting for a stool to reach pudding from the highest shelf but you cant see any character development whatsoever from Carl seeing Michonne at the window and say, frantically opening the door or crying or what not? Seriously? How can you think that hunting for pudding implies his solitude yet massive amounts of joy at seeing a familiar face doesnt? Honestly... I give up. I don't think I have any new points to add and I feel like I'm repeating myself. Admittedly if you bring up something new I will be more than happy to respond.

 

Does this answer your question?!? :Grin:
HURRY&KILLCARLALREADY

 

Now that you say that, I did read an interview with Gimple stating that these next episodes (second half S4) he's trying to make them look like small movies. Each episode have a beginning, middle and end. Maybe that's why this ep seemed like a "sitcom style" to you.

I still agree with you about the Carl/Michonne hug. As cheesy as it might have been, it would had been nice to see him react to finding her again.

 

To me the concept of characters deserving a specific level of status is ridiculous, which characters get screen time should depend on their importance to the story, and depend on that alone -- which is why Beth has had so little screen time, she hasn't been part of an important story. Now you can blame the writers for not writing an important story for her to be part of and that would be completely valid, but you're just asking for horrid writing if specific characters have to be given equal screen time.

Let's look at what you did say, "We were introduced to Carls angst against his dad and then had it resolved in the same episode". I pointed out that Carl's angst against his dad was clearly in evidence early in season 3 and has never gone away. The fact that he wasn't being loudly vocal about it in the beginning of season 4 doesn't indicate it went away.

Two of those episodes didn't involve the Rick and Carl at all, one involved them fighting off zombies breaking through the fence then the governor showing up and the rest had Carl bitching at his dad about being tasked with staying behind "to protect others" when Carl knows full well that what Rick is really doing is treating Carl like a kid and not letting him be useful. Trying to hide the reality of their situation from him. I'm really amazed that you don't see that, I've been waiting for their conflict to come to a head for more than a season and last episode it finally did.

That's what happens when you have a fight, you yell you scream you storm off, then you make up and all is forgiven -- at least temporarily.
Carl blew up at Rick and stormed off because he thought he was enough of an adult to handle things on his own. Then he was powned by bedroom-walker and came running home to Daddy. Their relationship has entered a new dynamic, there's no reason to believe it will run any smoother than their last dynamic.

But we did, many times. We even had him outright disobeying him when he accompanied Hershel collecting berries.

Absolutely, Carl getting the can of pudding was a moral victory, it was an accomplishment that reinforced his belief that he can take care of himself, that he can do this on his own. It was important for his character to build up his self confidence so that when bedroom-walker puts the smack down on him it completely crushes his sense of self worth. We then (I assume you would feel) waste precious seconds watching him write his message on the door -- but it's not a waste. Look at the message, he's trying to psych himself back up by making a quip, James Bond style. Look at the handwriting, it's not confident writing, its shaky, scared, I'm about to cry and wet my pants writing. He tries to regain his confidence but it doesn't work so he reverts to being a little kid and goes out onto the roof and eats a whole can of pudding -- literally destroying the thing that gave him the sense of accomplishment minutes earlier.

The pudding doesn't represent (imply) solitude, but we the audience needed time experiencing Carl being on his own in order to viscerally feel his solitude.

re: showing Carl finding out it's Michonne at the door: I just don't see what point there is to showing it, we know he's going to be extremely happy, we've already viscerally experienced that joy watching Michonne's reaction to seeing them through the window (which was just brilliant by the way) I just don't see the point in seeing it again. But hey, maybe I'm missing something. What, other than a sappy ending, do we get from showing their meeting that we haven't already gotten or can't easily extrapolate? Carl's going to be very happy to see Michonne, that's incredibly obvious, what unobvious information have we been denied by not seeing their reunion?

I know you're unlikely to reply to this message but if you would, explain from a story point of view or a character development standpoint the point of showing Carl and Michonne meeting. Because I really don't see one.

 

Well just because you asked... Admittedly Im only going to reply to this particular point because you want it clarifying, im certain if I replied to the others I would be repeating myself.

It would help show how
a) alone hes been, but seeing as you want something more...
b) That his anger is gone. Him seeing Michonne could have two standard reactions,
1: he shouts for joy or something similar or
2: he gives Michonne a where the hell have you been or, about time.
Halfway through the episode I feel certain Carl would have gone for option 2. Therefore by showing us Carls reaction it seems to me that it would clarify whether his attitude is permanent or temporary and solidify us knowing that he is back to how he was in episode 8.

Its been great arguing, I always enjoy doing this with people and sometimes I even play devils advocate just to argue (not here though). Cheers

 

I knew they had filmed it (their reunion)!, but deleted. This is an interview with one of the producers:

That final scene in "After," when she looks in the window and is so happy to see Rick and Carl, then when Rick sees her and smiles and tells Carl it's for him, that may be one of the best moments of the whole series.

What's funny is there was actually a scene where she came in and reunited with them, inside the house. We debated whether or not to end it there. We realized that was a much better ending than actually showing the reunion. I'm glad you're saying that, because we always second-guess ourselves.

 

Thats pretty cool. I wonder how many added and then deleted scenes there are...