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Rick is a horrible leader!

Discussion in 'Episode 603 - Thank You' started by Craven, Oct 27, 2015.

  1. HondaS2kXD

    HondaS2kXD Well-Known Member

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    1. There wasn't enough time to build a massive wall out of obsidian (minecraft reference) and even if there was enough time, the noise made by the group building the walls would've caused the herd to push the truck out of the way much sooner.

    2. Even if you could somehow build up a barrier around the herd, eventually they would get out. Better to lead them out on your own terms than to have to react on the fly when they're bearing down on the gates of Alexandria.

    3. Aside from outfitting the walls with m134 miniguns at thirty foot intervals the entire way around, very little can actually be done to "build up alexandria's defenses" to the point where they would be able to handle the herd.

    4. Alexandria had Carol, Carl, Sasha, Morgan, Tara, and Aaron-- all of whom have been above average fighters in the past. The asz wasn't defenseless.
     
  2. HondaS2kXD

    HondaS2kXD Well-Known Member

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    In the comic, Negan kills Rick and Daryl with a grenade.
     
  3. JohnConnor

    JohnConnor Member

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    Rick didn't say not to care about the crew. These are his exact words:

    Rick: If something's in front of you, you kill it. No hiding. No waiting. You keep going.
    Glenn: I'm going with you. You can't do this on your own
    Rick: Glenn, I can do this.
    Michonne: I need you (Glenn) to help me get these people back.
    Rick: Yeah...thing is, they aren't all gonna make it--
    Michonne: Rick?
    Rick: You try to save em, you try, but (if) they can't keep up you keep going. You make sure you get back.

    Is that not reasonable?
    Like a true Alexandrian, you'll probably say no. So before you do, let's take a moment to pause and reflect.

    Where is Rick going? Directly in the path of a thousand or so walkers with the explicit purpose to intercept them, act as bait, and guide them away from the town. Rick is risking his life, despite leaving his baby and son unattended unbeknownst of the potential consequences (*cough* the Wolves), so he can save the Alexandria community as a whole. That doesn't sound like someone who doesn't care about the group.

    Let it also be said, that Rick did not ask to be leader, he didn't take over violently. He could have, but what really happened was the long-standing leader of ASZ abdicated her post. She lost her husband and did not have the strength to carry on. Rick assumed command on Deanna's request. This is Rick taking action in the face of inaction.

    Michonne: Hey, do you have a problem with me?
    Heath: Just looking out for my people
    Michonne: And you think that I'm not?
    Heath: Look, I heard what Rick said.
    Michonne: Which part?
    Heath: How they wouldn't all make it. They meaning us....and not you. That you should leave us behind if we can't keep up.
    Michonne: Glenn is out there risking his life for you and for everyone and I'm standing here, so I don't know what the hell you're talking about. Rick said what he said because sometimes you don't have a choice.

    Pardon me, but I do have a problem with Heath's attitude towards Glenn and Michonne.

    Michonne is still there trying to help them get to safety. One of the Alexandrian's accidentally shot Scott in the opening scene to 6.03. Did he stay with Heath to help carry him along back home? No. He cut and ran. Michonne could have done the same; she had even less of a connection to these people and none of the guilt, and she still chose not to.

    We know about Nicholas and yet Glenn trusts him again, in a life and death situation he didn't even have to place himself in. Nicholas not only has a history of leaving people, that used to be his explicit strategy! Only until Glenn came along believed in Nicholas after he shot and threw a walker at him did Nicholas strive to do better. Anger need not be directed at Glenn by anyone in Alexandria.

    The only thing Rick's missing is people willing to step up to the plate and take some initiative and stop criticizing and sabotaging.

    So if the aforementioned examples did not convey Rick's willingness to take care of his people, then you're counterpoint will undoubtedly be "he didn't train them, it's his fault people die". So lets address that as well.

    Heath and Aaron have been going on runs, experiencing the elements, witness all types of violence and yet come back to Alexandria as if no one in the community will ever have these burdens. We're almost two years into the zombie apocalypse. Yeah, the one in which the government of the United States of America collapsed. The one where endless violence broke out by the sheer fact that people had no food, water, shelter and lost everything. The Alexandrians had it easy. Heath and Aaron KNEW THIS. Did they (at the very least) take initiative to train their people they care about so much? No. That's somehow newcomer Rick's job.

    Okay so, first episode of the new season, the wall for this big walker migration plan isn't even up yet and what is Rick doing? He's trying to train them on how to kill walkers. Walkers come out the woods randomly and Rick encourages them and tells them how to defeat them. Did they utilize this opportunity to grow? No, they backed away and cowered in fear, forcing Rick's group to act. The Alexandrian's didn't want to be trained. Hell, the Alexandrians didn't even carry guns before Rick insisted they do.

    When Deanna started to shut down and become reclusive, did her son Spencer bring her back and talk her into participating (living) again? No. It was Maggie from Rick's group

    When Tobin was out extending the Alexandrian wall, he left Francine to die. Abraham stepped up. Then Tobin wanted to pack it in early. It was Abraham from Rick's group, who pushed forward.

    When Father Gabriel told Deanna that Rick's group was not to be trusted and needed to be kicked out, it was Carl who agreed to teach him how to defend himself. The group offered to teach this man an entire season ago. Did he want it? Nope. But Carl is still ready, when FG is ready.

    When the Wolves tried to storm the armory it was Carol who saved the day and stopped them from getting even stronger weapons. Where was Olivia, the Alexandrian watching over the armory? Hiding in a closet.

    When Spencer came down from the guard tower after the wall was attacked, did he remove the now zombified driver from the seat? Did he turn off the horn that attracted the walkers? No. That was Morgan.

    Morgan: What happened?
    Spencer: Someone, a group, they got inside the walls...they're killing people.
    Morgan: We need to get in there. You coming?
    Spencer: ..........
    Morgan: Aight *proceeds to confront the Wolves directly without a firearm*


    So your final point about the Governor.

    Rick offered to lay down their weapons and have Woodbury and his group come together.
    The Governor attacked anyway.
    Hershell pleaded for his daughters lives.
    The Governor said they weren't his and attacked anyway.
    Rick welcomed Tyreese, Sasha and Tara into the fold despite their history with the Governor.
    The Governor assaulted Glenn, Michonne and Maggie.
    When Rick's leadership was questioned, he decided to lead by committee in the Prison.
    When the Governor's leadership was questioned, he opened fire on everyone.

    TL:DR
    I wholeheartedly disagree with your assertions on Rick Grimes and the original poster's statement "Rick is a horrible leader"

    Rick is not perfect. He is not the second coming of Christ. But damn, if he doesn't try. That's more than half the people we've seen on screen can say.
     
    #23 JohnConnor, Oct 28, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  4. Prufrock

    Prufrock Well-Known Member

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  5. Sachiko

    Sachiko Active Member

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    Whenever something goes wrong everyone's always shouting this from the rooftops, but when he makes a decision that saves many people suddenly go quiet. Hm.
     
  6. Sachiko

    Sachiko Active Member

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    thank. You.
     
  7. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    JohnConnor's post above is the most detailed destruction of arguments supportive to both the Alexandrian's and Rick's supposed poor leadership since arriving at Alexandria.

    I am amazed at the consistent defense of the Alexandrian's. The Alexandrian's simply do not want to learn.

    In Season 5, Episode 15 Carol states "If Walkers didn't get Ed I wouldn't be here right now".

    Rick replies "Yeah you would".

    He is correct - Carol has it in her. Things are a mix between nature and nurture, not just one or the other and the Alexandrian's lack the nature bit.
     
  8. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    In another thread a poster was critical of Rick's leadership and necessary ruthlessness and was suggesting that Glenn was doing the right thing with Nicholas and that Nicholas was evolving, only for bad luck to put them in the situation they were in.

    I'll tell you one thing - Rick would have executed Nicholas had he known of what transpired, which meant Glenn wouldn't have been in that ally allowing a tweaking out headcase to guide him around. Which means Glenn would have made it back.

    Likewise what an idiotic move to have a giant horde trailing you and to bunker down in a building to get Scott patched up. Patch him up briefly and keep moving. Scott and David were not problematic Alexandrian's, the irony, neither was Annie and they all could have gotten back had they been smarter. Annie and Scott asked to be left behind themselves, which they could have found some secure little spot to stuff them in and tell them to be extremely quiet, while that horde moves through and they'll be back for them later. There were options.

    Heath has something to do with that also, they wasted time in that building. Glenn's plan to light the place on fire on was stupid.

    Rick's advice - keep moving. They didn't listen.

    And then Morgan's bitch ass indirectly has 20+ deaths on his hands and more coming.

    Yeah... Rick's horrible. In fact let's reroute all power and decision making to Morgan and Deanna and see how long anybody lasts.
     
  9. Berry

    Berry Member

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    Rick said "try to save them", and Michonne did. She went above and beyond, even disregarding part of Rick's advice because she was trying so danged hard. Did she make it back with all of them?

    I think the real question is whether she would have made it back with more or fewer of them, had she taken Rick's advice. (Hard to come back with fewer!)
     
    #29 Berry, Oct 29, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2015
  10. el_hombre

    el_hombre Member

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    Yeah I'm wondering if they will give Negan a similar treatment to what they did to the Governor, i.e. made him a little less of a comic book-style character, a little more 3 dimensional. Ofcourse it'll be a tricky balance because how much do you try to take away, the amount of swearing will probably need to be looked at, the amount of talking to Lucille maybe.
     
  11. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    They've got to tone Negan down. Negan is great but he's comic book villain stuff, adapting him can give other dimensions.
     
  12. JohnConnor

    JohnConnor Member

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    Negan is the greatest villain Rick could have. They will soften him, I do realize this, but I hope Andrew Lincoln can act against a true foe. He's very obscene, he's reckless and he honestly doesn't give a f*ck how you feel. That's the nature of his character. It's meant to piss you off. However they portray Negan I hope they stay true to the spirit of the comics.

    This is a spoiler from the comics
     
  13. Blueman

    Blueman Well-Known Member

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    According to the comics, who is the next villain after Negan?
     
  14. chantal7

    chantal7 Member

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    I knew that whole leading the walkers away was a bad idea. I couldn't see that going 100% right. That was SO MANY zombies!
     
  15. Marc

    Marc Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, and I do hope we get more background story to him. They can make him really awesome. I like the Governor in the tv-show. Negan can be crazy too in the tv-show but there need to be a more, delicate matter.
     
  16. el_hombre

    el_hombre Member

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    Yeah, give him a bit more dimension.
    They might even have to have him cut back on SOME of the swears...
     
  17. JMac

    JMac Member

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    Spoiler! Still need to figure out that spoiler box thing... But don't know if you'd consider this one?
    Many way, don't take my answer as gold; as its been awhile since I read this part of the comics. Too there could be some debate on what you'd call a villain.
     
    #37 JMac, Nov 1, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
  18. Lindigo

    Lindigo Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I would count that as a spoiler because a lot of us don't read the comics. I know your heart is in the right place, though.

    Go back to that post and typle
     
  19. JMac

    JMac Member

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    #39 JMac, Nov 1, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2015
  20. Lindigo

    Lindigo Well-Known Member

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    Oh, you're so welcome! It took me a silly long while to figure it out for myself. :)
     

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