I think our survivors, especially Rick, are just tired of being victimized by other humans. In his speech he said "They would try to own us. And we would try to stop them. But low on food we could lose." Or something like that. But Rick wants to prevent that from happening so he decided to hit them first. So I would not compare Rick to the Governor. The Governor victimized and pillaged weaker groups. Rick and our group are just fighting to survive.

 

The Governor was apparently a good leader and didn't start murdering people until the death of his daughter - at least that's my understanding. I wonder what Rick would turn into if someone murdered Carl and Judith. Probably something like the Governor. Also, this is the first time Rick's group is going to do a preemptive strike on another group. I suppose one could say attacking Daryl's group on the road started it... but that's not why Rick is attacking him, he's doing so because they "might" come after them some day. So now he's murdering people in their sleep because they "might" be a threat to Alexandria some day.

OK, now since this follows a pre-set script, he won't become the Governor - but it sure looks like he could if the stars were aligned slightly differently.

 

I'm not sure that this is Rick's first pre-emptive strike though. Didn't they set a trap for Gareth's group to lure them into the church after they took Bob? As you pointed out, Negan's group has already threatened our people when they stopped Daryl, Sasha and Abraham on the road and almost killed one. Now that didn't cause Rick to chase Negan down but they didn't know that much about him until they talked with the people at Hilltop. The only thing Rick's group had to offer in exchange for food was their fighting skills. It was a win-win sitch....get food and remove some sickos in the bargain.

As for Rick flipping out over Carl and Judith dying? After the big fight at the prison, they thought Judith was dead and he didn't have a major personality change. Granted he still had Carl but even if his kids do die, and it would depend, I imagine, on the circumstances I can't envision Rick doing any of the crazy mean spirited things the Govenor did. I think he had Carl in mind when he heard the story of the 16 yr old boy being beat to death. No way was he even going to take the chance that that might happen to his son.

 

With Gareth's group, the incident with Bob was after they were taken prisoner and going to be eaten, and after Bob was captured. I'd say by setting that trap they were really just responding to a serious threat posed by Gareth. That doesn't bother me at all.

Negan's group is definitely bad people. The interaction with Daryl's group proves that. I still see their interaction this time (going out and killing a bunch of possibly high people in their sleep) as different in intent and morality. I guess I think of their communities like Medieval Europe. All independent, some rulers good, some bad, the big fish swallow the small, and two groups of equal stature might glower at each other, but otherwise would probably generally leave each other alone, or more likely, trade with each other. From that perspective, the incident on the road could be seen as that, just an incident, that could be forgot regardless of which side won, but not really an act of war. Rick's actions, otoh, are definitely an act of war.

On the governor vs. Rick, remember at the farm they were willing to torture Randall. You really can't see Rick the neck biter going beyond the governor if say, Carl and Judith were captured, and the capturer sent back a couple of fingers from them to prove how serious he was with his demands? What do you think might happen to the messenger the capturer sent to Rick? Nothing, or something Governorish if Rick wanted to find out information from him?

 

Rick was planning to make a pre-emptive strike at Grady Hospital before he was talked out of it.

That said, I can't imagine that if Rick had found Hilltop on its own, he would have demanded half their food in exchange for sparing their lives.

 

Grady kidnapped Beth though, and his "strike" was just to get her back.

But Rick now DID demand half of what Hilltop had - which according to Hilltop was more than the Saviors took. Say Rick and crew does kill off Negan, but they then grow hungry again and haven't started growing their own food. If you lived in Hilltop, would you assume they would just quietly starve, or would they show up on your door demanding food just as stridently as Negan did?

I'm not so sure about how benign Rick would be if he found Hilltop first. What if they were starving and Gregory refused to give them anything? Think they'd just go away and starve? I doubt it.

 

Based on their prior actions, Rick's group would trade guns to Hilltop for food. That actually came up during the negotiations between Gregory and Maggie. Gregory responded that they didnt need guns.

 

That's my point. Say Rick's people aren't just looking at a food shortage, but are actually starting to starve. Hilltop has food but doesn't want to trade. What does Rick do then? Probably under one name or another he'll take what he wants to feed his people. Over time that decision would get easier and easier, most likely.

 

These negotiations are why Maggie is coming to the fore as a politician and why Deanna would be useful to still have around. Managing a community is different than managing a wandering tribe. The prison had a council for a reason. Rick is a good leader in many ways, but not all. And the groups are all looking out for themselves and trying to avoid being taken advantage of. Maggie demanded half the food not only because they needed it, but to send a message- "We're nice, but we're not *that* nice. Don't mess with us". Remember that little wooden figure Daryl demanded from Dwight? What use did Daryl have for that? None. He took it to make the same point.

 

Do you imagine that if Negan's biker spokesman for the group had actually killed either Abe or Sasha that would be considered an act of war? He intended to carry it out and would have if he hadn't loved the sound of his own voice and just shot without warning. If Daryl hadn't blown them all to hell first I think you would have had that act of war. From what little I know of Negan I don't think he would consider what happened on the road an "incident". Sooner or later the two groups were bound to meet and at least if nothing else, Rick has shown Negan that he's not the type to roll over and play dead.

You talk about people being captured, from Rick's family. The way I see it, Rick's biggest liability is his heart. He still has one. Not only his children but everyone in his group are his extended family and Negan will use that against him. Rick will do anything, give up what he can to see each and everyone of them safe so I really don't see him turning into the Gov., a man who was in love with the idea of being all powerful. Not to mention I can't see him putting anyone's head in a fish tank, committing rape, staging arena games etc, etc. but I could see him mercilessly killing the guy who dared send him any body parts or commit any heinous acts against the group (Lucille) even if he couldn't retaliate immediately. That would be justice in my book.

 

They took more food because they were putting more on the line for this trade...their lives.

If Gregory had refused to deal with them at all, at the very worse I could see them taking what they needed but then again they might have thrown up their hands and said fine, but we have long memories don't come to us if you need anything. They're quite resourceful. Somehow I don't think they would resort to murder to scare people into giving them what they wanted.

 

No, if biker guy killed Sasha or Abe, I think the group could overlook it -- in the right situation. OTOH, say biker group snuck in to Alexandria and did a Wolf attack, there's no way the Alexandrians could look the other way.

I agree completely Negan won't ignore Rick or his group now. For better or worse, the two sides are committed at this point.

And I don't see Rick becoming the Governor or doing the things he did *now*, but, if the Governor was a decent man before his daughter died and he snapped, who knows what Rick would be capable of if he snapped?

 

I don't think they'd murder as a means to get what they want, but I could see them saying, "look, we need food and we have the ability to take it. We are taking it, but we'll leave this as a trade. If anyone tries to stop us..."

There's different types of resourceful. They are good at surviving. They aren't so good at building things or long-range planning.

 

No Rick would not turn into anything like the Governor. The Governor was a sadistic lunatic with a torture chair. A torture chair. He had a wall of walker heads in a room. And let's not think he was beyond raping Maggie. He did not on the show but he did rape Michonne in the comics. Rick is not perfect either, but I can't see him going to either of those levels. His goal is to protect the group no matter what.

 

I don't think Rick would ever become a rapist. That's not who he is. But Randall was tied to a chair when they were beating him though wasn't he? At that time they were on someone else's farm. If he had his own compound, isn't it reasonable to assume they'd beat information out of someone in a set room, rather than do so in his living room? "No matter what" seems to mean he'd do *anything* to protect them... including torture?

Again, I'm NOT saying Rick is like the Governor now, just that if things were different, and enough stress was applied to him through hurting his family, he might end up that way. Yes, I know that's not the way the story is going to go. No, I don't think he will ever become the Governor.

 

Ding ding ding ding. Correct.

 

Absolutely. And since when was the Governor a decent guy before? Because Milton said so? Because of Penny? Because here's a fact: you don't become a rapist overnight or at all unless your moral standards are in the toilet to begin with. People will do a lot of questionable things, but Rick raping or threatening to rape someone is absolutely out of the realm of possibility. It's what sexual predators do, and they don't become that way from just "snapping". Think about that for a second when claiming the Gov was allegedly a "decent" man before... bulls**t. Also, Rick, under no circumstances, would annihilate and massacre all of his own people going to bat for him, just because his ego was shattered. The governor, unlike Rick again, is a Narcissist and they are also not created overnight or from snapping.

Instead, Philip, Brian, the Gov, was always that manipulative, charming, two-faced "Jim Jones" type before Michonne killed Penny or any nonsense excuse like that. He killed the armed guards after pretending to surrender and laughing when saying "what did uncle Sam bring us", or something to that effect. He has zero remorse for kills that Rick would feel remorse for, if for some reason, Rick had to also kill good guys. That's as close as he'd ever get, and Rick doesn't have a pathological personality disorder, which starts when Little Governor was young, so this entire comparison is looney tunes. Rick is a ruthless survivalist; the governor is a malignant narcissistic and psychopath.

 

He actually did say in that episode "we came all this way for food we're goin to get it". And Paul had already told them they didn't have ammo. I think Rick is at a point where he would try to be reasonable but he's willing to be the bad guy if it means his ppl live.

i honestly think Rick is too far gone to be able to turn back into who he used to be and its cus of the world they live in. It won't let him go back. Every time he begins to settle down something makes him have to kill. But I mean in this world being too far gone isn't always a bad thing unless u just become a ruthless killer killing for no reason