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Rick vs. Glenn Philosophy

Discussion in 'Episode 603 - Thank You' started by Watching Dead, Oct 29, 2015.

  1. Watching Dead

    Watching Dead Member

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    I am curious to find out definitively if Glenn survives. Let's assume Glenn truly is gone. Will people lean more towards Rick's way of thinking that its not worth it to take chances on people. If Glenn dies does it put a huge dent in people being worth saving. Nick's flaws lead the two directly to their demise.

    Not only that but Rick instructed Glenn and Michone very clearly to survive even if it meant leaving the others behind. Neither of them listened does this chip away at Michone's empathy?

    This will end up painting Morgan in a curious light since he is the most hard core on saving everyone, even the wolves.
     
  2. batongal

    batongal Active Member

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    Nice observation which pushes the pendulum more so in the direction that Glenn is in fact dead in order to move and affect the characters along. Very simple. This will open many new story lines for the future. It was time and it had to be done. Too much foreshadowing in the episodes as well.
     
  3. Adam Poole

    Adam Poole Member

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    Yeah but there are no witnesses to what happened with Nicolas and Glenn so I don't see how that is going to effect anyone. Glenn's death itself would effect everyone in major ways but I don't think anyone would necessarily tie it to his flawed trust in Nicolas.
     
  4. Biffster

    Biffster Well-Known Member

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    They're going to need to find Glenn, dead or alive, or you have an open story arc that needs to be closed. You can't have a main character just vanish with no explanation. It has nothing to do with believability but everything to do with storytelling conventions. If Glenn dies and no one finds the body (what would be left to find?) then Glenn and Nick just become missing persons.
     
  5. Watching Dead

    Watching Dead Member

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    That is true I didn't think of that. I wonder if Maggie will put it together and tell people because she knew that Nick shot Glenn. I forget who she told but she said that's what Glenn does, he saves people. If Maggie puts it together I wonder how it will affect her stance on people like FG.
     
  6. Adam Poole

    Adam Poole Member

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    No they obviously will find Glenn dead or alive. What I mean is that, if he is dead, nobody will know that it was due to Nicolas' actions and Glenn's naive faith in him. They are the only two witnesses to what happened. Nic got headshotted and if Glenn is a walker I don't think he's going to be able to do much talking.
     
  7. JohnConnor

    JohnConnor Member

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    Maggie would undoubtedly put two and two together and she would think it was Nicholas, at least in part. Some would attribute it to the size of the herd and the simple fact that they couldn't escape it/survive it. They know Glenn wouldn't run off somewhere. They might suggest the Wolves kidnapped him at some point.

    Let's remember. Nicholas and Aiden used to intentially leave people when shit got real outside the fences. He tried to carjack Eugene last season trying to escape. Maggie is Glenn's wife, not just a regular citizen. Nicholas carelessly let Noah die, shot Glenn and then threw a walker at him, leaving him to die as three walkers fell on top. It's not that well vocalized but the group is at least weary of this guy.

    Should Glenn die after hearing he went off with Nicholas alone Maggie could think Nicholas caused it or ended up in peril trying to save Nicholas. Either way she would think that him following Nich's lead wasn't worth it considering what she has with him and his major role in the group as a whole. He doesn't need 100% of the blame but he would not be remembered kindly.
     
  8. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    Michonne-Heath-Scott know that Glenn went off with Nicholas. Maggie knows the history. Maggie would tell everyone what Nicholas did, everyone will put it together that Nicholas had a hand in Glenn's demise.

    I personally hope Glenn is dead. It adds to the realism and it'd be a major shift for the main characters as the OP said.
     
  9. Hope the Savior

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    If Michonne informs the others of Glenn and Nicholas' plans, then those privy to Nicholas' treachery would immediately surmise that, at the very least, Nicholas' ineptitude contributed to Glenn's death. Eventually, Maggie, Tara, or Eugene would inform the rest of the group of Nicholas' past misdeeds, so they too may similarly believe that Nicholas' actions somehow factored into Glenn's demise.
     
  10. batongal

    batongal Active Member

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    Heath would know for sure because he even questioned Nicholas about things that had happened in that exact town in the past. He knows of Nicholas' wrongdoings as well as anyone. Rick gave Glenn a look when Nicholas volunteered at the meeting that day so he is aware of his nefarious behavior. I think everyone is aware but the point is how will his death affect the group and how they look at and trust people in the future.
     
  11. Hope the Savior

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    Glenn's death would undoubtedly make our core group question their humanity, but I think Maggie, Michonne, Tara, Eugene and Daryl would endeavor to take chances and save people. They were all befriended, heavily influenced, and/or assisted by people who saved them, many of whom are dead. Andrea and Carl freed Michonne from her mental anguish and brought her back. Glenn and Maggie welcomed Tara into their group despite her role in the prison battle. GRATM forgave and maintained their friendships with Eugene in spite of his lies and cowardice. Beth's mannerisms affected Daryl enough that he didn't simply revert to his pre-apocalypse ways while with The Claimers. And Aaron's kindness and acceptance of him brought Daryl out of his self-imposed isolation.

    During their grief, they would probably reflect upon how their friends helped and influenced them, and these realizations would inspire them to continue to save people. I think the five of them would want to continue to honor their deceased friends and loved ones' memories and live by their examples. Maggie would certainly grieve the most, so she may falter a bit more while reconciling survival and retaining her humanity. But I think her friendship with Tara would strongly factor into her continuing to save people. Tara would remind her that the best way to remember Glenn is to adopt his can-do attitude and spirit of saving people.

    I also think that, during their reflection, they would probably also realize that they need to continue to take chances on people for two other reasons: 1) if they want the ASZ to thrive as a community, they will have to open up to and truly accept their fellow Alexandrians and 2) if they are to truly rebuild civilization, they will eventually have to recruit more people.
     
  12. batongal

    batongal Active Member

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    After watching episode 6-1 again I'm going to say that Tara is going to have a very hard time dealing with it. She was befuddled on how Nick was aloud to stay among them after causing Noah's death and attacking Glenn. Maggie explains to her that Glenn could have had him banished but Glenn "saves people" like Nicholas. Maggie tells Tara you can still have him banished and she thinks for a second and then tells Maggie "I'll follow your lead" and they hug it out as Glenn watches on with a smile on his face. (Just had his fate sealed)
     
  13. CoyoteTWD

    CoyoteTWD Well-Known Member

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    I think you are right. If Glenn is indeed dead then Tara is going to have a very hard time with it. Her and Glenn went through a lot together and I think she feels like she owes Glenn a great deal.
     
  14. Sachiko

    Sachiko Active Member

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    Nicholas was the last one with Glenn. They already didn't trust him much as it is. It's not a long shot to think that they will blame it on him no matter what.
     
  15. batongal

    batongal Active Member

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    Yes of course and knowing she could have still had Nick banished and didn't is going to eat away at her. Which also points to the fact that the whole scene with her and Maggie is there to set up the course of Glenn's death. Otherwise the scene is a throw away. whoops I wrote aloud above haha!--> allowed.
     
  16. CoyoteTWD

    CoyoteTWD Well-Known Member

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    Hmm - I don't know if she'll feel guilty about it in that way. She allowed Glenn and Maggie to make the decision since they were really the ones most impacted by the things that Nicholas had done. She might question that kind of forgiving philosophy seeing that aftermath of it but I'm not sure if she'll carry the weight of that decision. And I don't think Maggie would let her.
     
  17. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    If Glenn IS dead, and the bodies were found, I'd see the bullet hole in Nicholas' head and figure that he either committed suicide in despair or was Mercy killed by Glenn after being bitten and them being surrounded. Since there wouldn't be any bullet holes in Glenn's remains, one could assume that Nicholas didn't kill him (unless they thought he pushed him off the dumpster to save himself and later killed himself). Overall though, seeing the remains the most likely thing to have happened is that Nicholas died first.

    If Glenn is alive, he can tell them himself what happened.
     
  18. Spidey

    Spidey Active Member

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    It wasn't Nicholas fault Glenn died, it was Annie and the other injured guy. That's what put Glenn and Nicholas in that situation. It was not leaving those two behind at the beginning that was the problem. I think even if Nicholas wasn't there at all, Glenn would have been in the same or similar situation doing what he was doing.

    So I think the message is "Leave people behind if they get injured" not " don't help weak people who need it" these are completely different. If Glenn is dead I hardly blame Nicholas as I do blame the injuries to Annie and the other injured guy.

    In my opinion Glenn has been succeeding in making Nicholas a productive and strong member of the group. That isn't what caused his (apparent) death. I thin if you were to blame the largest factor of Glenn's death, it's the group's decision not to leave anyone injured behind. Whether that's the right choice or not is a different debate, but that is the reason the horde caught up to them all.
     
    #18 Spidey, Oct 30, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2015

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