Not until we look at stars and eat crabmeat- I think you promised that in the Lizzie/Mika thread, like a year ago?

 

Yes, and I will hold true to my promise. By the end of the night you will have identified at least 30 craters on the moon, and discovered the Andromeda galaxy. And crabmeat is good, but would you settle for stuffed mushrooms?

 

You guys thinks that's bad.A New York City infant caught herpes and died as a result of an Orthodox Jewish procedure known as metzitzah b'peh that involves, a circumcision practitioner, or mohel, removes the foreskin from the baby's pp, and with his mouth sucks the pp to cleanse the wound and remove the blood .

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/baby-d...l-circumcision-nyc-orthodox/story?id=15888618

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/05/infant-herpes-jewish-circumcision_n_3021277.html

 

OK *Deep breath*, I'm good.

I'm not sure here that you're aware of what a fact is. What we've been discussing is all opinion.

Ahh yes, I guess the deep breath didn't work and I'm apparently still getting too worked up because we all know it's the person getting butthurt in a discussion who insists on repeatedly throwing out personal insults. I guess it's something I need to work on.

Yes, of course - because my opinion that it is wrong to perform a genital mutilation procedure for the sake of tradition on anyone who can't consent to it would dovetail so well with that of someone from one of the countries that still subjects both genders to it.

I don't put anyone on an ignore list unless they're completely incoherent or insist on formatting all their posts in huge, eye searing colors. Someone's having a different opinion? I've always found that the biggest draw of forums. If it upset me to hear an opinion that doesn't match mine, I'd just record myself and nod wisely as I play it back.

Anyway, I want to give a shoutout to the mods. I'm shocked that (to their credit) no one has come running in and threatened spankings for such a massive derail.

 

Rick was way out of line. Its a critical time where the two people need to be coming together and they are already torn by the losses from the trip to the warehouse. No matter what was going on as a community leader you can't act like that and still be taken seriously. It reminds me of the jail where he lost it and the group was turning on him. It took Herschel to finally tell him really blunt to strighten up. Carol is being a huge instigator too. The friction on the communitry is as much the fault of both sides. I don't think the townies realize how important Daryl is to the stability of the group. He seems to be the one that brings them back to earth and they assigned him to be away all the time. that was a huge mistake.

 

the trouble is they aren't even close to being the same. I'll tell you what: You find some hospital in the U.S. that cuts the entire glans ***** off, then pushes in and sews over the penile shaft to make sure the boy doesn't get exited, and I'll say you've found an equivalent procedure to FGM. I can't believe you could read about the things they do to you and not be sickened by it.

 

What are you talking about? I've presented FACTS that there are health benefits to male circumcision, You can say you don't think the benefit overall is worth the procedure, but it's still a FACT that there are benefits.

I've also presented FACTS (or Prufrock did) that FGM is harmful to women's health, period.

The only person giving just their opinion is YOU.

 

This thread is a giant cluster****.

 

You may not hear from [MENTION=8839]Prufrock[/MENTION] for a while. I think she's on a plane to Gambia to actually do something about a problem she deems important.

But hey, good for you for typing all that stuff into your computer. It must take a lot of effort to parse someone else's posts that many times.

 

Talk about derailed... this thing went way off the rails. There is something relevant to the thread topic about every 10 posts or so. lol

 

For about the 5th time, there are (generally) equivalent procedures of all levels for both genders. It's disingenuous to insist on taking all male mutilation as the least harmful type and all female mutilation as the most harmful type. The procedures, on a moral level, are the same thing.

The facts presented I haven't disputed. It is a fact that, in societies where both genders are mutilated, the females are generally more mutilated than the males. It is a fact that statistics show a correlation between male circumcision that could indicate very minor benefits from the procedure. It is a fact that statistics from Western sources show no benefit to the female procedure.

We're all giving out opinion, whether we state it or not. I'm literally stating that I don't think either gender should be mutilated on the basis of tradition. By hammering over and over how terrible female mutilation is, you're tacitly expressing the opinion that you're fine with the male mutilation (whether that's because of the relative severity of the procedure commonly performed or because you're fine with mutilation as long as it's restricted to males, I don't know (though I've asked several times)).

You've been saying it's wrong to mutilate females. I haven't disagreed once with that opinion. I've stated that it's also wrong to mutilate males and the universal response has been, "You just don't understand how bad female mutilation is."

Good on her. I'm not a crusader, myself. If I were, though, I'd probably be more inclined to passionately clean my own house than go to someone else's to stage my social revolution.

------

Anyway, as I and others have pointed out, it's a massive derail that won't go anywhere, so I'll bow out now. I thank everyone who's participated like grownups. It's been an interesting discussion.

 

For about about the 5th time, FGM is a common thing in certain parts of the world. Show me where the equivalent procedures are done in males. LOL, it's funny you will try and discount real health benefits to circumcision because the benefits don't affect everyone, but at the same time are trying to say that MGM is so important when it almost never never really happens.

 

Not sure how gender mutilation worked its way in there but ok.

Rick was right and his attitude and actions will be vindicated. We know Rick isn't the one to worry about in the group, the real cold blooded one is Carol. Rick is the good guy with the gloves off. Carol is cold and calculating. Good guy with gloves off is like a scale between "lunatic" on one end and "pre-apocalypse small town sheriff" on the other. The trauma he has been through causes him to shift up and down that scale without ever truly being just the good old small town sheriff or the full blown lunatic. But it does cause him some lapse in judgement which is somewhat exploited by Carol. I love Carol but I think she is a hundred times more dangerous than Rick.

Ricks current attitude will be vindicated in the season premier. That is all I'll say. Other than the spoiler below lol.

Just my prediction.

What I don't get is the lack of communication about all of this with Michonne. She is key to any major move the group makes and Rick has to know this. His actions towards Pete were not rash- it took him a day to think it through. Also the whole build up to the "asz weak people, we will have to take over" thing seemed to be missing Michonne. I wish the show would have given us some reason for her exclusion from this.

 

I think they did. Several times Michonne has stated they ARE one with the Alexandrians now, and she seems to want to fully integrate into their group. Carol absolutely does not, Rick is on the fence, and Daryl is tilting towards Alexandria. If they were to fill im Michonne at this point, they would most likely worry she would run over and rat them out to Deanna.

 

Ok that makes sense. None the less you would think Rick would at least bring up Pete to Michonne before he even mentioned it to Deanna. He knows she is pivotal to the whole situation. Talking to her about him, and then both of them approaching Deanna together, and Deanna having the same reaction would demonstrate to Michonne the conclusion that Rick has already some to about the people of Alexandria. Then again we have next week to see how it plays out.

 

MGM and FGM are different and you know why? Because the genitals of men and women are different. But the reason are still the same: to curb human sexuality. Somehow in the case for men, especially here in America, it has been rationalized and justified as having hygienic and health benefits. Whether one is worst than another is irrelevant.

Both practices violate the right of a person to his or her body. Of course, women are traditionally depicted as victims whereas men are never otherwise.

On one hand, men are pressure to undergo this procedure because in their culture and society, they actually gain something from it...in terms of religious, social and economic status. Hence they have an incentive of sorts...and also explain how circumcision for men lasted so long and is tolerated.

As for health benefits, any so-called benefits from circumcision is the same benefit as removing any body parts. Remove it and that is 100% guarantee it will never develop a problem.

I see women gets far higher chance of getting breast cancer than any man will have a problem with his foreskin. Most will live with the risk, some will remove them, of THEIR OWN CHOICE.

And that is one of the main argument against male circumcision, most men do not have a choice.

I am an intact man and I am certainly not going to tell women what its like to have a clitoris other than the fact that they are born with it and it serve a function and that women can do what with it as they please.

Too bad most people, you included it seems, do not extend that same courtesy and consideration to men.

I guess it would shattered the myths that you have been taught.

 

Can men still enjoy sex after being circumcised? Yes?

Then the procedures are not equal.

What part of this is so difficult to understand?

 

I think a disconnect here is that some people are comparing FGM to a standard circumcision performed in the US (they are not even remotely the same), and some people are comparing FGM to MGM. I can understand the argument that unnecessary cosmetic surgery to a male's genitals is wrong, but to compare a routine circumcision to FGM is just silly.

As someone who is circumcised, I don't see any problem with doing that to any male children I may have. I think you'd have a MUCH harder time finding a female who has gone through FGM saying they'd be fine with doing that to their children.

 

Thank you for being one of a handful of male voices of reason in here. I tried really, really, really hard to stay out of this thread, but there's only so much lunacy I can take.

Before anyone uses this statement to launch a counterargument... I agree with you for the most part, but the sad thing is that many times female circumcision/mutilation is carried out by other women. Because it's practised in male-dominated societies, there is social pressure for mothers to have their daughters circumcised in order for them to be accepted into the community/religion and to marry well.

But would any woman who wasn't brought up in those cultures choose to have her ciltoris or entire vulva removed or hacked up? Hell, no.

 

To play devil's advocate, I would also imagine that few men who grew up in a culture where circumcision does not exist would look upon it favorably.

I think I ended up commenting on this in part because I take a little bit of offense to circumcision being referred to as mutilation. I don't feel my genitals are mutilated at all, thank you very much.