Agreed. Not that I would know, because I don't have a *****, but imo it's an unnecessary procedure and if I had a male child I wouldn't choose to get it done.

However, male circumcision is not mutilation, as you say. Circumcised *****es work just fine.

 

First, I hadn't read any of this thread until yesterday, so I know I'm late to the party. For the record, my parents decided to put a helmet on my "soldier", and I've been satisfied with that decision.

My solution to jail (other than there being a jail/stocks of some sort) would be temporary exile. Give them minimum rations for their time. They could even fortify a 2-story house within a few miles of the ASZ to prevent all access to the 2nd floors except for a ladder. The person exiled would be safe from walkers on the 2nd floor if they stayed up there (their choice).

Additionally, when you look at everything we've been shown in the TV show (not the comics..I haven't read them), Rick didn't have enough information to make the call to kill or even exile Pete. We have Deanna's sort-of silent consent of Rick's description. We have stories from Sam that he found his mom unconscious after a bunch of noise downstairs, but who is to say that Jessie wasn't the aggressor and Pete just knocked her out in defense? Or that she was even knocked out? Other than that, we've got vague descriptions from Sam (and those are second-hand information through Carol!) We don't have any questioning of the 2 most important people here...Jessie and Pete. I fully believe that Pete is the abuser here, but not enough to make a final judgment.

 

lol, there is more than enough to make the final judgment that Pete is the abuser. Putting all the evidence on the show together, including Pete striking Jessie in the face on camera, during the fight, and still bothering to even mention the idea that Jessie is the aggressor and Pete was defending himself is silly. In a tense ZA situation you don't have time for silly. You have to use common sense and act.

 

I've just seen situations (in real life) where it initially seems pretty clear cut what is going on only to discover later the exact opposite was true. While the vast majority of the time, the male will be the physical aggressor in these situations, there's always a chance the female is the instigator. Ask yourself, based on what we've actually seen on the show, is it impossible for Jessie to be the primary aggressor? If Jessie were psychotic, she could easily portray herself as a victim, manipulate her children to believe so (especially if you've made sure they've locked themselves in the closet so they can't see), and convince the town people that she's the victim. Along comes Rick, you flirt with him, and he offers to take care of your problems. Problem solved....for Jessie. Those situations occur in real life as well.

There's no need for instant judgment in this case. Pete refused to leave. Rick should have walked Jessie out of the house instead and de-escalated the situation. Get Michonne, and other backup if you want, and then investigate it fully. How long could that take....a few hours?? Keeping in mind that the town has no clue that any outside threat is coming (I'm guessing), they can't spare a couple hours before they make a decision to execute a citizen? What does that tell the rest of your citizens? That their lives are in danger if they're ever accused of crimes and not worth a full investigation?

Also, Pete striking her during the fight doesn't count. If it does, then Rick is going to be executed for striking Carl during the fight.

 

There's no instant judgment. Yes, just from what we've seen on the show, its very clear that Pete is the aggressor. To have Sam hear a commotion, find his mom unconscious with his father out on the front porch smoking, combined with all the other statement and evidence, the matter is clearly evident. To even entertain the idea that Pete is the victim, is beyond silly.

 

This being TV, anything is possible. But at this point it would be a massive misdirect to have Jessie be responsible for what has been going on.

And, imo, such a misdirect would be against the general narrative of what the show has been presenting us regarding the Alexandrians.

 

Again, I know what everything points toward, but actual evidence is a very different thing (and this case would never be convicted in a court of law based on what we've seen). What was the problem with taking a few hours to ask questions? To get full details? And having Pete solely as the victim isn't the only other possibility. Domestic violence situations can be mutual as well.

 

A man's son detailing some of the abuse is 'actual evidence' lol. Pete striking Jessie on the face in the street, is 'actual evidence'. When Rick said h knew Pete was hitting her she said "he did this before as well, but he got help. I can help him again", that's an admission. Its actual evidence. We don't have courts of law anymore, but if we did, a detailed account of abuse by a son combined with several eye witnesses accounting him striking Jessie on the street, most certainly would be enough in a court. What's wrong with taking a few hours to ask questions? Well, for one, during those few hours, Pete would panic, knowing the truth was going to come out, and that's when he might do something drastic. No one said more questions couldn't be asked, but it should be done with Pete away an din custody already, and I don't think it would take hours. Again, in this type of situation, you can't afford to do the silly thing.

 

Based on what we've seen (not what is implied by the show), nothing which Carol said (of Sam's stories) is admissible. That's hearsay. Deanna hasn't offered any direct evidence either, so that's out. Jessie's statements indicate that he's struck her, but again, who is to say that she isn't instigating the whole thing? No way this gets convicted. If we're using when Pete swung his arm backward after she tried to drag him off Rick (she put her hands on him first in this situation by the way), then are we willing to convict and execute Rick for striking Carl as well?

Also, they kept the kid in the barn for a long while as they determined his fate. With the amount of force and strength now, keeping Pete locked in a closet or small room would be fairly simple. Rick's group is strong and has the hardened mindset to do what's necessary if Pete tried to escape.

 

Except Rick didn't strike Carl. He pushed him back. Pete struck Jessie audibly in the face. And Rick doesn't have close family members indicating to others that he's perpetuating domestic violence. So not even comparable in any way. Jessie's statements are not hearsay. This is cut and dry. You tie Pete up and take him out. During the time it takes to subdue him and make a plan for how to dispose of him, you can ask the kids separately about the abuse. If something surprising comes up, you deal with it. But you don't let those questions delay tying up Pete in custody and planning what to do with him. To do anything other than that would be extremely foolish, as the time when an abuser is in the process of being caught, is when he is at his most dangerous.

 

In many jurisdictions people acting in loco parentis have a duty to report suspected cases of abuse or other domestic trouble. Sam asking for a gun would fit that description.

I suppose it would have been slightly wiser for Rick to say that he was leaving with Jessie and the kids. Nonetheless, Pete took the first swing at Rick.

 

Honestly that doesn't matter. Pete is full grown man there is no need to put his hands on her. If he felt like the situation was getting out of control there are steps to take other than violence. When Sam said he found his mother laying unconscious on the floor that was it. No matter how much Jessie instigated, it's clear that she can't defend herself against Pete physically. I'm not saying that if Jessie did instigate everything that her actions should go unpunished, I'm just saying it doesn't answer or rule out what Pete is doing. And that doesn't go for TWD alone it goes for reality as well.

 

I think the problem is that some people have a hard time separating the realities of what people would have to do in a ZA in order to keep themselves safe and alive, from armchair philosophy.

 

A duty to report is quite different than an immediate conviction and subsequent execution. Sam asking for a gun would spur a further investigation which is what I have been saying all along.

 

Isn't armchair philosophy precisely what you're doing at this point? You've stated that some of my scenarios are silly, yet almost every possibility that I've suggested is something that is based on personal, real-world experience. If these possibilities exist in our current reality, then how can you be dismissive of them as possibilities in the ZA?

 

Right. It doesn't answer or rule out what Pete is doing. I've said that I firmly believe that Pete is the guilty one, but based on what the tv show has actually shown us, further investigation is warranted before anyone's fate should be determined. For example, we've got Carol saying that Sam said that he found his mom unconscious. That would spark a ton of questions (for me that is). Was there blood anywhere? Did the surroundings look as if there were a fight? Was Jessie bleeding? Did she have marks? Did Pete have marks? Was Jessie drunk and just passed out? Does she have a medical history? Was Pete drunk? Did Sam say they said anything specifically? (and not does Carol say that Sam said these things) Did the neighbors hear anything? Was Jessie out of sight the next few days?

 

No. I suggest you read up on 'armchair philosophy'. What I'm talking about is what they'd have to do, practically. Subdue Pete first, ask questions later after he is tied up, and then exile him. Doing an investigation while Pete is still free would be foolish and dangerous. You ignored my post to you regarding the practical nature of the plan they'd have to do to keep everyone safe, and instead responded to my post where I quoted someone else. Because you know that the plan I outlined is the safest and most rational. If not, please tell us your alternate plan. You must have one...as this isn't armchair philosophy correct?

If your plan is to just investigate while Pete is still free, then you know little of the psychological profile of controlling spousal abusers. These people are cowards, they are the type of people who become very dangerous if pressed into a corner, such as the fear that they are being caught. If Rick started 'hours long' investigation, questioning Jessie and the kids, while Pete was still free, he would likely do something drastic, and someone would be hurt or killed.

 

We already know that Sam told Carol Jessie was bleeding.

 

Here's what I said in my first post on this thread
"Additionally, when you look at everything we've been shown in the TV show (not the comics..I haven't read them), Rick didn't have enough information to make the call to kill or even exile Pete"

Here's your reply..
"lol, there is more than enough to make the final judgment that Pete is the abuser."

In my next response, I asked if it was too much to just investigate a little further. I asked for even just a few hours.

So now your plan has switched from instantly making a judgment to tying Pete up and asking questions. So I guess your plan was actually what I suggested from the very beginning. Do I still get to call it my plan?

 

I, erm, had to look up "erudition" and "abasement."