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Rick's Plan? Good?

Discussion in 'Episode 612 - Not Tomorrow Yet' started by Neuropyramidal, Mar 6, 2016.

  1. RoboLives

    RoboLives Member

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    Plan Velveeta, soft, gooey and not real (smart).....cheese.
    Tipoff that it was not Negans main place, Hiltop guy says the food store room is small. There is no fence or alarm system around the Satellite Dish complex. Only two guards on duty.
    Apparently Ricks group is not capabable of doing a 360 degree survey of the place in order to notice the fleet of vehicles parked in back.
    Apparently they parked the RV too close to the compound, since Carol and Maggie thought it was an option to go and help versus stay and guard the RV.
     
  2. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but... they didn't come up with that plan until the farm was overrun. It would be nice if they had a plan BEFORE disaster struck.
     
  3. AnnieOakley

    AnnieOakley Active Member

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    I absolutely agree with every tactical point you made, since it's kind of basic, even if you're running out of food. Taking one to three days (minimum) to do some reconnaissance is absolutely vital to a successful pre-emptive attack along with a detailed contingency plan. As far as impulsive plans go, it went shockingly well, merely in slimming the number of enemies, but the absence of forethought regarding surveillance, is laughably inexcusable and illogical.

    You never ever, ever, underestimate your enemy, especially an unknown entity at large, whilst overestimating your own power and infallibility. Taking the time to do basic recon is always necessary in order to best avoid traps, misinformation, and give the enemy a greater advantage.

    Not to mention, Rick, Michonne, Daryl & Carl actually did know it was vital to do some of this at Terminus, yet not with an offensive war plan on the evil Wizard of Oz and god only knows how many munchkins?! With this, I have blame the TV and comic writing, since the characters aren't that dumb.

    Therefore, the "good" rendered from this impetuous attack was eliminating people through a series of kills, and slimming his army to an unknown (perhaps irrelevant degree), but these immediate results don't necessarily reflect a good plan. In this case it doesn't. Why? Without basic "surveillance", there's no way to plan reliable exit strategies nor a secondary offensive/contingency to navigate combat back in your favor (with say, cover fire from trees).

    As a result, we see them encounter a "vast ocean of sh*t they don't know sh*t about", when they needed to know "every fine grain of said sh*t", at least as much as possible. In reality, this plan would've been a quick win of the battle, loss of the war. (comic reality aside)

    The almost-plan would've been awesome if they'd been written to be as smart as they are; by doing the above and then raiding the compound like terminators. Nonetheless, it was bloody awesome to watch.
     
    #43 AnnieOakley, Mar 8, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2016
  4. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    ^ The only thing to add to this is that the Saviors were expecting Gregory's head back within a short time frame and they needed that angle to be able to utilize stealth. They also had a basic layout from the people who had been there and I'm sure basic schematics, not enough, but something.

    Recon gone bad also would put the Savior's base on high alert and would ruin the above plan for stealth and without stealth the battle would be long and hard and possibly not even winnable and they'd lose numbers.

    The biggest things I agree with is that they didn't have an exit strategy, wrongly considered that this base was the real stronghold and their perimeter defense was laughable. High powered suppressed rifles with good shots in night time camouflage should have been in the perimeter and it was ridiculous to see Tara and the others joking around in the car instead of on guard, hit by surprise when the alarm rang.

    The area and perimeter could have been scouted to see what was rolling around and any roving patrols could have been stealthily eliminated the same night as the attack.

    I also cannot understand why they didn't go in with suppressed weapons, as they have plenty of suppressors.
     
  5. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    The team itself could have been adjusted. Maggie and Carol where they were situated had no use, Maggie is pregnant - she stays home. Carol's combat skill is stealth and she isn't mentally in this right now, she also stays back at ASZ and can tend to the defense there if anything arises.

    Tara/Heath would have been better suited outside, since he is not experienced and Tara since she is a good shot was in a good position for her.

    Jesus should have been in there from the start masked because he's got close quarter combat skills, the other guys should have been on their way to HillTop after the group gained entry and not waiting for the alarm.

    Father Gabriel was fine in his position.

    In the perimeter, excellent shots like Sasha and Rosita with the high powered suppressed rifles at different cover positions. They're more effective here than in close quarter combat and can drill heads at long distances with seemingly no issue.

    The inside team should have had Jesus accompanying Glenn and someone more aware like Daryl accompanying Abraham(Abraham is a dumb brute and finesse is not his forte), which may have not seen that alarm tripped. No newbies or softies going in to an execution assault.
     
  6. AnnieOakley

    AnnieOakley Active Member

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    Excellent amendments to the SWAT/militia and their duties. Impressive. (Note: Will respond to your first reply later)
     
  7. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    The thing is they didn't have time to scout the place out too long. They already took up time going back to Alexandria to discuss the deal with Hilltop. If too much time passed the Saviors would think something was wrong that the guy had not brought Gregory's head. That would make them more and could also perhaps even send them to Hilltop.

    As it was Rick had said if something wasn't right they'd return to the camper and recalculate things. They just didn't have days to wait and needed the cover of night to try and pull the thing off.
     
  8. Mr Bag

    Mr Bag Member

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    I kept hoping Rick would light a cigar and say something like "I love it when a plan comes together".
     
  9. mfinley

    mfinley Member

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    Excellent break down!

    I'll just add one thing - would anyone attack a compound without the very first basic thing everyone would want to know? - How many enemy are we facing? Without that knowledge you could be walking into a compound with 100 people in it. The very start of planning an assault like that would start at getting good intel, starting with the size and strength of who you will be facing. Is Rick scared of binoculars?
     
    #49 mfinley, Mar 8, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2016
  10. ReeciePiecey

    ReeciePiecey New Member

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    It was a good plan. It would have worked perfectly but killer carol decided to be judgy mom and convinced Maggie to stay back and then started an argument while in the field.
     
    #50 ReeciePiecey, Mar 8, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2016
  11. BlackLightning

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    I'm sorry but this opens up discussion for Rick's most obvious error:

    1. Originally, Maggie was responsible for perimeter watch/vehicle guard alone in the middle of the night with no means of communicating with the other groups. In what world would that be okay?
    2. Maggie is pregnant in a unpredictable, unstable world. I admire her courage and her sense of duty...but why is she even on a mission like this? She should be at home, contributing to the defense of Alexandria (just in case) or doing administrative work.
    3. Why is Rick - the de facto general - so nonchalant about allowing Maggie to have a choice in this?

    Rick is overestimating himself and his people.

    Carol is well-versed in all things dealing with assassination, stealth, sabotage and cold-blooded ruthlessness: how it can all go right and how it can go wrong. Carol and Rick have been two sides of the same coin for a while now but Carol has always done Rick better by being more observant, wiser and smarter. Rick himself has all but admitted it on several different occasions.

    He should've listened when she got on his case.

    So, if you ask me, Carol was right to be "judgy mom" to Maggie. But, again, Carol's timing is bad.

    She should've raised a huge stink about this earlier at the church, a couple hours after the church meeting or by the vehicles before the mission. Not during the mission. Not while the Saviors are on high alert.
     
  12. Ionut

    Ionut Active Member

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    They got a general number figure from the the guy who had been inside and gave them the basic layout of the place.

    Rick is just reactionary and they are limited on time due to the avenue for stealth being Gregory's head. Had the alarm not been tripped it would have been that much easier, Sasha neutralized the threat that big dumb Abe didn't see due to his lack of awareness, but not quick enough for him to sound the alarm.

    Had it been Daryl or Michonne there, two people superior with close quarter hand to hand, it would have been an instant silent kill.

    Things like that and the suppressed weapons are crucial. Tara outside with a pistol? No - suppressed rifles around and around.

    It was a stealth mission, which that aspect of the plan was great. They didn't cover their odds and ends though, so better recon and things like I listed would have had them more likely to succeed in full stealth and be in and out with supplies/weapons, with members of Negan's group finding a bunch of corpses inside with no idea as to who committed it.

    And... that'd still be a fun episode, haha, not as fun as things going wrong and full on firefights, but still appealing.
     
  13. westwingnut

    westwingnut Well-Known Member

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    It's not like Rick really had the time to reconnoiter the position first. Any delay in attacking increased the chances that the Saviors would find out about it.

    Lee didn't have his cavalry at Gettysburg for the first two days. That didn't stop him from attacking. (Indeed, he was a lot more successful on the first two days than the third, when he did have his cavalry.)
     
  14. ReeciePiecey

    ReeciePiecey New Member

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    I disagree. Maggie is a grown up who can make her own decisions and had discussed things with her husband before hand. Rick didnt beg her to come he said anyone who didnt want too can stay home. The plan was based on having more people on the inside to take care of everyone. Maggie would have been inside with people who had her back but Carol changed the plan at the last minute because she didnt like it. Which was not Ricks plan.

    Now whether or not everyone thinks pregnant Maggie should go or not has nothing to do with Ricks plan that's a whole separate issue which is really a what was Maggie thinking issue for wanting to go on this mission (which a whole scene was devoted too between her and Glenn by the way) not a what was Rick thinking issue.
     
    #54 ReeciePiecey, Mar 8, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2016
  15. BlackLightning

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    Okay you have a point. But Maggie wouldn't of been inside. She would've been outside on watching over the vehicles and the perimeter alone.

    What Carol did change was her role: Carol was supposed to be inside but she elected that she stay outside with Maggie. Now, I don't know if Carol did it because it was the right thing to do or if she did it to give Maggie a piece of her mind.

    I guess the point that Carol and I were making is that Rick should have protested (or at least questioned) Maggie's participation and role.
     
  16. Stuartino

    Stuartino Member

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    I think I finally understand the Wolves... we've already killed more saviours than there were Wolves. I think we are supposed to be lulled by a false sense of security, that by now we must have dealt with most of the saviours.
    If that was an outpost, with that many troops and an arsenal that stocked as well as that, I think Negan might truly have an army.
     
  17. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Rick was a Zerg, not a Protoss.
     
  18. EZD

    EZD Well-Known Member

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    I think Carol stayed back because she knows that just like Terminus she will need to save the rest of them from the usual roadblocks that get in the way of the plan.
    One of those to Carol is having the Preggers Maggie a part of this at all.

    Maggie on the other hand is the one who agreed that they would carry out this raid,if not in so many words and as she told Glenn she felt responsible for being there too. Makes perfect sense to me.

    They DID have comms with each other too and I imagine this is exactly how Alicia Witt is talking to Rick now,on the radio that Maggie had to do the same thing before being captured herself.

    I think this is not going to be a huge deal like they have made it out to be and I think the group holding MagRol will end up with our group and be the ones who fill them in on the horrible fate they have just wrought on themselves.
     
  19. BlackLightning

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    I find this comparison fascinating. Because doesn't the Battle of Gettysburg have the reputation for being the bloodiest of the bloodiest American conflicts AND the watershed/crossing the Rubicon moment of the Civil War?

    While they were busy looking for something that looked like Gregory (or even after they had already finished), Rick could've sent a team out to get a closer peek. It might not have worked well...but here's for trying.

    I think the theme of season 6 is that Rick's plans look promising at the beginning but end catastrophically.
     
  20. BlackLightning

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    No, those comms belong to the Saviors.

    Remember that the guy that Rosita shot off of Daryl's bike? He was carrying the walkie talkie that Rick is using to talk to Alicia Witt.
     

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