Wow, just wow....

 

He didn't do anything wrong, certainly not enough to deserve death.

 

I have a hard time with the comm center because they had no idea who was actually there. All soldiers? 10% soldiers and 90% captured people who would have had no desire to fight them, and may have been allies? They don't know, yet they went in and killed everyone in their sleep.
Now if they knew they were all Negan's soldiers -o.k., get them before they get you.

I also don't like how Rick's plan wasn't to take anyone captive and get information out of them, and the guy they had? they killed. What kind of foresight is that?

 

We seem to be in agreement that they need to impart more information among themselves and again I will point to the general uselessness of the Alexandrians. They've given them some training, as shown on the show(not enough), but in the short time span getting them even marginally up to speed with all thats going on would be a difficult task. Put psychological strain on weaklings as well and they can get mutinous - which some of ASZ did.

They need to intensely fine tune their own tactics, but I really think getting HillTop regulars and ASZ regulars into trained fighter condition in months(at the very least comparable to our hardened survivors who move like a SWAT team and are deadly shots) is an impossibility.

So yes - correct idea, but a lack of resources to implement it. In this case - functional human resources.

Jesus is already combat trained. He kicked Daryl and Rick's ass in hand to hand and is well versed in knives and firearms. I suspect that he's a rarity there but I could be wrong.

But no arguments that HillTop-ASZ should be a coalition of resources/intelligence/manpower. HillTop no doubt has a few like Jesus who could be useful in combat and definitely useful in recon, which is the most sorely lacking element displayed.

We all agree they've been tactically inept. There's no arguments there and anybody thinking otherwise is completely incorrect. The siege of the Savior compound going as a success was a mix of luck and hitting them by surprise. The element of surprise was the only thing they got right, everything else was incompetence planning wise and they got by via luck and their own superior fighting skills combined with the surprise.

Again tho, these "sheeple" are not so easily turned into effective grunts. The minds of the people you describe as "sheeple" go into deep mental distress and sometimes collapse upon new stresses out of their comfort zones. It's been displayed in the earlier parts of the season where the most useless of ASZ residents were mutinous, committing suicide and being general liabilities. They were also hostile to new plans based in the reality that they needed to be ready for threats. Very hostile.

I realistically think we only have a few ASZ human resources and a few HillTop that could become real combat proficient assets in a fight.

It's been a lot of failures, some successes. They cleared out 40-45 Saviors with relative ease but in doing so in reckless form they now have themselves in a pickle and are going to eat it.

The critical error as we all have noted has been intel. Disorganization being the 2nd.

If you were merely judging from what we've seen so far in Rick's group vs. Saviors, Rick's group are clearly the superior fighters. Better planning and better use of the element of surprise could have seen the Saviors completely and utterly wiped off the map with minimal casualties to Rick's group, now Rick's group is going to lose some of his most valuable group assets and be stuck with red shirts.

 

They did exactly that, but you missed it because they turned the documentary cameras off during that part.

 

In the real world and not a TV show Rick's security measures would result in anyone patrolling the walls dead. Understand that outside the walls of Alexandria there are buildings and woods that give the enemy cover to creep well within rifle shot distance of the walls and patiently wait for a wall patroller to show themselves. Bang, dead wall patroller. Next.

In the real world you have to secure your base area by expanding your defenses with offensive patrols to sweep the areas outside your walls and deny the enemy from using those places to snipe you, this is the concept of FOP (forward observation posts) you have to see the enemy before they can see you, and you sure as hell aren't going to accomplish that by standing in the open at the top of a wall fully exposed to a sniper.

Taking that concept one step further is ambush sites set up on the road ways leading to Alexandria, again to intercept and destroy anyone using the road to attack Alexandria. You simply do not hide behind your walls and let the enemy roam freely unmolested just outside your walls doing whatever they want.

 

Indeed, I mentioned in another thread that Sasha is unbelievably stupid of standing up on the wall in the front main entrance, exposing at least the upper half of her body for enemy sniper shots. Even at this stage when they know a powerful enemy group with rifles is approaching, they still do this kind of things.

And I think one reason for not passing info around is that ASZ is still pretty much running on a basis of: everyone does his/her business as one wishes. One goes out as one likes. One does not need permission from anyone. So, Daryl can just take off on his own. Denise threatened to leave on her own medicine mission if Daryl/Rosita did not take her along. There just is not a command structure in the ASZ community.

 

br0k3n...I agree with pretty much everything you've said throughout this thread. I think there comes a point where you just have to acknowledge that it's a TV show, and that it's more important to the writers and producers that the show appeal to a broad audience than be tactically and strategically accurate or sound. Believe me, I understand your frustration with all of this, I've been hoping for some time that they would start to show how these people stop simply surviving and start thriving. I've just come to accept that it's not going to happen, obviously it would mean the end of the show for this to happen.

 

I keep reading about how Rick and Abraham should have better security and tactics for these situations. But don't understand why people would think Rick , a small town sheriff, and Abraham, a SSgt in the Army who to my recollection has never revealed his job in the Army ( he could have been in the motor pool or any non-combat position) would have security and tactical knowledge more than the patrols they've been running ( Abe and Sasha walking the town).

 

This is one of the reasons you give them a pass on a lot of things. However you'd hope maybe out of all of the people in Alexandria, maybe somebody, just one person, maybe a 10 year old would come to Rick and say, "Rick, do you think we should maybe do this instead...."

 

I'm not saying I disagree with them acting foolishly and not having a better security plan, I just don't see them to be the security experts just because of their pre ZA jobs