I'd throw the "fat guy" toward the workers' side of the bridge, avoiding the trolley tracks, hoping he only broke a leg or what not, to hopefully catch the worker's attention to hopefully give them time to the avoid the trolley. I would then of course flee the scene to avoid apprehension.

 

Since WHEN does pointing out the FACT that Otis killed off Zombies that cornered Shane mean we are "forgetting" any of Shane's endeavors during all this???? Another fact, Shane's endeavors do NOT cancel out the FACT that Otis saved his ass after he sprained his leg and got cornered and vice versa. It also doesn't cancel out the fact that perhaps had Otis had Shane's mindset, he would have been just fine, while Shane got eaten up.

Did you intentionally choose to ignore what I said about being in a dying situation and fight or flight response, OR do you have very selective attention? Gotta be one or another for you to parrot a response like this without addressing the reasons why Otis was that way.

Well lets have a look at your *facts*

I'll put it very simple. Otis was hunting for deer. Otis was tracking the deer. Shane and Rick allowed Carl to approach the deer that was being tracked by a hunter. Carl wound up in the line of fire as a result of being allowed to approach a wild deer. Shane and Rick did not anticipate that a hunter would be tracking that deer. The hunter did not anticipate that two men and boy happen to be in the middle of the woods and that the two men would allow said little boy to approach a wild deer. Therefore, purely an accident and for you to spin this as if a hunter was evil trash that was looking to shoot a little boy, is absurd and obnoxious. Try again.

*sighs* See my second to last post above, and address that, if you wish for your *fact* to get serious consideration.

And Shane only went to the school because Otis shot Carl.

You are purely making this up because it sounds good to you. You really have no way of knowing what Otis would have done if another person shot Carl. The FACT that Otis was an EMT and therefore in the medical field would speak some what of his character that begs to differ with your purely speculative claim here. (Since when is speculation *facts*?)

No shit. He was infatuated with Lori and wanted Rick's family for himself. What Shane wouldn't do is go out time and time again to save anyone else. As I recall, he's the one that wanted to end the Sophia search, when if it was Carl lost in the woods he never would have allowed the mere mention of quitting the search efforts. Why? Because Shane was obsessed with Lori.

 

1. Otis shot the deer, Carl was collateral damage.
2. Otis was defending himself.
3. Otis was risking his life to "right a wrong" he unintentionally committed.
4. Lori and Carl are not what matters most.

A quote I heard somewhere seems to fit here.
"We can not save Humanity without holding onto what makes us Human."
Shane killing Otis was murder. Plain and simple.

What did this "Murderer" do next?
He murdered the kid and tried to murder Rick.

When Rick kills Shane, he prevents Shane's genes from spreading further, possibly preventing future murders.
When Shane killed Otis, he prevented the same, more possible Otis's in the future will not exist to risk their lives to save others.

 

wow the situation is 100% different..... otis saved shane because he COULD there were only 3 zombies and only 2 that otis had to kill.....however shane and otis were being chased by 35+ zombies with 1 bullet each, so there was no way out of it. and thats the only reason shane killed otis was because he HAD to....period.

how can you insinuate that shane's instinct was to kill otis??? try again. if that was true shane would have let otis die those 2 times earlier i said.......try again

also shane saved the group from randall

1. randal's group has 30 men armed with assault weapons
2. randall stated he would bring his group to the farm
3. randall's group rapes women
4. randall tried to kill rick and his group
5. randall was trying to escape his cell

30 men w/ assault rifles vs 5(4 without shane) real fighters w/ pistols or shotguns = MASSACRE

 

why do all your post have to deviate from the original topic...this is about a moral dilemma based on the Shane/Otis incident. The thread should be about the original question asked and shouldnt have gotten onto Shane/Otis, but it is somewhat similar so I'll let it go. (Edit: I know you'll probably bitch about this..I'm not accusing you of changing the topic, this is just in general of the thread)

But what the hell does Randall's group have anything to do with this topic. NOTHING! Stay on the main topic dont hijack threads or else infractions will be given.

 

Yes and Shane saved them when he COULD! (Which actually, he did this when both were involved, not when Otis himself was cornered) Then he killed when he couldn't. So what? Are you not getting the point? Neither mans heroic moments during that time frame negates what they did, and in this case I brought up Otis saving Shane who was cornered, when he really didn't have to. He had the vent, he could have kept going, he didn't. And there were a lot more zombies than 3 or 2 at the school. Just because Shane started out being cornered by 3 and Otis got to him in time, doesn't make the others not on their way. Hence why they wound up with a big trail behind them.

So what? And I raised the point that had Otis had the same kind of mindset, he could have left Shane for dead for the zombies to busy themselves with, but he didn't. They were pretty much doomed at every corner. Also, I'm not convinced that they would have never made it out alive had Shane not done what he did. They were chased, yes, risky yes. Definitely both would have died had they kept going? That's open to imagination and depending on what one favors as the best way to handle in the situation. Also, I have this sneaking suspicion that HAD Otis done that to Shane when they were running away, you would have been first in line to point out how he didn't have to do that, blah blah blah and correctly pointed out that being chased wasn't proof of 100% doom.

Excuse you, did I say "instinct"??? Nope, I said "mindset". Did Shane develop this mindset? He sure as shitting did, and that's a fact. If Otis had developed that mindset, and done Shane like Shane did him, would he have lived? He sure as shitting would as we saw Shane survived because of it.

What's with all your "try agains"? Because I said that to you when you tried using Carl as an example of Otis being nothing but trash??? LOLOL Sorry but that example was as absurd as it was ridiculous, therefore try again, get it? LOLAnd YES the "True" Shane DOES have the mindset to murder, or let die to save self, albeit he tries to avoid that thinking at times. There are two kinds of people in this world, the ones that would kill Otis to distract zombies, and ones that wouldn't. Shane was one of the ones that would, that's obvious.

I don't, like I didn't before, buy your claim that Shane saved the group from Randall and his men. That's nothing but speculation. What he did, or what Rick would do, neither was proven more effective than the other, and in the end, it may have done nothing to prevent encountering that group, and that's a fact. Besides, we all know that Shane's intention with Randall wasn't to play hero to the group and save anyone, but as part of his elaborate murder plot, another fact. That's the difference between fact and speculation. You speculate that this stunt saved them and treat it was if Shane was trying to be a savoir to the group, while the FACTS are, it wasn't proven any more effective than dumping the guy off over 20 miles away, proving to save them, and it was done because Shane came up with the idea to murder Rick. This was hashed over before, you really feel like hijacking and taking this thread off topic too to beat that dead horse again?

 

Shanes a hero because he had the courage to save carl and his group no matter what.....your forgetting that SHANE TOLD OTIS TO GO ON WITHOUT HIM.....god i feel like im baby sitting you should know this.....if shane was all about himself why would he ever even offer that?? otis left him NO CHOICE...there were 3 options

1. Give otis the meds and stay back, carl lives
2. take the meds from otis and leave him for the zombies, carl lives
3. get eaten by zombies, carl dies


shane made the only choice he had.....if it was my kid, or anyone i cared about. i would do the SAME THING.....shane realized it was a life or death situation and someone had to die to save carl...he offered for himself but otis wouldnt take it....plus i wouldnt trust otis with my loved ones either.....shan had no choice and is a hero because he saved carl

 

Yes and so did the following people: Otis, Hershel, Otis's wife, and obviously Rick. Carl wouldn't have survived at all without any of these game players involved and that's a fact.

No I am not forgetting this, nor should my pointing out some facts during these events be taken for assumptions that I am forgetting anything about this scene. Your logical fallacy in this debate is the crude assumption that one fact cancels out, or overrides another fact when both are true. Another thing you must have missed is that this fact supports my claim that Otis never developed the killing mindset. Had he done that, he would have did what Shane told him to do, but he didn't. He felt the need to stay with Shane and look after him and assumed they'd look after each other during their sprint to the car.

Oh honey, I can assure you, the feeling is mutual on this point, so now that we both feel like a couple of baby-sitters (LMFAO) why don't we stick with the topic and try to refrain from personal jabs such as this? When you use personal jabs like this, it shows that you are struggling to handle the debate.

Excuse me but, you'll have to quote me where I said Shane was ALL about himself, or withdraw your erroneous comment. Try to stick with what is said and not put words in other people's mouths all the time, this is another debating logical fallacy of yours.

OR they could have continued to sprint to try to make it to the car. There was nothing about this scene that indicates that they 100% and absolutely would have been killed on the run, that portion of it is left up to imagination and speculation. OR Otis could have left Shane for dead back when he was cornered. What's hillarious about all this is, because you like to jump to conclusions, you are entirely CLUELESS as to whether or not I actually agreed with what Shane did here. LOLOLOL Do you realize how much this attacks your credibility in a debate? Before you start, you really should learn to make damn sure you either 1. KNOW what the person's position is on the incident. 2. What the person is talking about. This is what, the 2nd or 3rd time here you've done this?

I'm not convinced.

I might have too, I might not have. It would depend on if I thought we could both make it alive. Although, maybe I would have stopped, and told the one with the vent to keep going and then at the last minute, put a bullet in my head.

Not so much. He suggested it yes, but if he truly wanted to, he would have forced otis's hand by stopping and staying behind to be the sacrificial lamb.

There is nothing that suggests that Shane killed off Otis based upon lack of trust in Otis around his loved ones. Moot point.

He is ONE of Carl's heros, he is not the only one. See my first response. FACT, Carl would be dead meat if even one of those team players involved in saving his life either refused to do so, or called it quits. Collectively, THEY are ALL his heros, and your Shane goggles that inhibit you from recognizing and giving credit due to anyone but Shane, won't change this fact.

 

well i mean your whole argument doesnt make sense to me. you believe that otis and shane could have magically made it out of the schoolyard and back to the farm no problem. if that was true then i would be with you in this debate. but i mean idk what to tell you...its ultra implied from the show they wouldnt make it out alive together.....shane just murdered otis for no reason? makes no sense to me.

how was shane going to forcce otis to leave him behind.....he tried and otis wouldnt take it.....i mean wtf he tried thats a fact but go ahead keep ignoring that to support your argument

btw youre wrong....otis, herschel, and patricia would not save carl "NO MATTER WHAT" the only reason they helped was because they felt sorry otis was responsible.

lets say carl got hurt again by an accident. im sure otis, patricia, or herschel wouldnt go out to save him. but shane would go out to save carl no matter what, every time...

 

Actually, I didn't jump into this until you claimed that Otis tried to kill Shane and then I felt compelled to explain to you about the dying a painful death process and how the fight or flight chemicals that rage in the body at those points effect people. Also, my argument, which is pretty clear, is that I do not know if they would have "magically made it out of the school/yard" without event, and that whether they would have gotten safely to their vehicle or not, is left admist uncertainty. They might have, they might not have.

It's not ultra implied. It is uncertain, unknown. They might have, and if they were both out of bullets they would have had no choice but to try a little harder together. What is ultra implied is Shane's perception that they wouldn't have made it out alive together, and thus did what he did.

Quote me where I said what sounds like "Shane murdered Otis for no reason". He had a reason (whether or not others agree with it) which was, his perception was, they would have been over come by the zombies if he didn't do it. Might I have done the same thing? Of course? Might I not have? Perhaps.

I ignored nothing of the sort. I just don't consider saying "Go, leave me..." to be a great effort in trying to force a hand. Now had he halted, stayed behind and yelled go, Otis's fight for survival would have kicked in, as well as the knowledge that he holds the vent, and he would have sprinted if it came down to that point. With that said, do I blame Shane for not forcing his hand to move? Nope! Shane's human like anyone else, and wanted to live even if it meant taking another person's life. If he wasn't capable of murder he might have died, like others who aren't capable of murder.

Btw I am NOT wrong. First of all the argument was not whether or not people would save Carl "no matter what". It was, whether or not they can be considered Heros too and the FACT that without them, Carl would be dead. Moreover, to claim, fantasize, pretend, or imagine that Herschel, a devot Christian, and others are that cold hearted that they wouldn't care enough about a little boy to work hard to save his life is asinine. But I guess for those with purely Shane goggles, will imagine whatever they can to avoid admitting and giving credit to others for their efforts, even if it means imagining that a group of adults are sociopath enough to not want to do everything medically possible to save a little boy.

Shane goggles, read above. Plus we addressed this, and interestingly enough, when it came to a little girl lost in the woods, Shane didn't want to save, every time.

 

shane didnt want to save the girl because it was way over 72 hours and the girl was most likely dead....and he was RIGHT....

shane stopped, was on the ground and told otis to go on without him..once otis said no shane slammed the ground with frustration. he didnt want to kill otis he did because he had to...

again you think herschel and them would go out for supplies to save carl....herschel was about to kick the group out for no reason, let alone go out and save someone.......i mean again you dodge everything....link two and two together instead of dodging everything by saying "we dont know" when theyres facts supporting 1 side....

 

What about Daryl and T-dog? Hershel helped them and had no responsibility to help them like he did with Carl.

And as Zambi said beside for Lori, Carl and himself, Shane wouldnt give a rats ass about helping anyone else out.

 

well thats your opinion....and contradicts what we saw in the show when shane killed randall and cleared the barn....i mean that helped his whole group not just lori or carl

 

Which would NOT have been his excuse if it was Carl lost in the woods over 72 hours, regardless of whether or not Carl later turned up dead. Hell, I would be willing to wager that he would have knocked the teeth out of anyone else who uttered anything that remotely sounded like stopping the search efforts if it was Carl out there.

But if he was over come by zombies or let it get to that point, Otis would have no choice. However, as I said, I do not blame Shane so much for doing what he felt he had to do in that situation where he wanted to survive and had only split seconds worth of thinking.

No, I think they would have used THEIR skills to save the boy no matter what. Going out for supplies isn't the entire thing that saved Carl, he needed ALL their skills. Shane and Otis were the ones that happened to be most skillful at going on supply runs. Shane needed Otis who knew what to look for and gather, and Otis needed Shane to navigate and help. The medical expertise were needed from Hershel and Particia, and Blood was needed from Rick. It was an entire team effort that saved Carl and that's a fact that your Shane goggles will never overcome. Nor will your supposition that these adults are sociopaths that hate children enough to rather see a child die than help, if not for guilt tripping.

As for the threats to kick them out, no I did not dodge or ignore that. Once again here you go thinking one fact cancels out another fact and your thinking in terms of black and white is so erroneous. It escapes your attention that not only did Hershel insist that they WAIT until after Carl was well enough and found the girl (when he could have sent them out with an injured child and missing girl), but he also had no idea just how bad it was out there, after being so long in the farm and sheltered. Once he realize how bad it was, and I actually Credit Shane in some ways for helping him realize the danger of zombies, he wanted them to stay, and moved them into his home, giving Lori his bed. So this was pure ignorance of the dangers in the world, as well as concern that this group may not be good to have around for his family and wanting to protect his family, that led to this behavior and not because Herschel is a sinister Sociopath that wouldn't use his medical skills to save a little child unless it was for self serving purposes; the crap you are trying to spin tale.

 

again your wrong....re-watch episode 7.....herschel said clear as day "i want you and your group gone, by the end of the week" that has nothing to do with sophia the missing girl....he was kicking them out regardless of weather they found or did not find sophia. cant wait to see how you dodge this one....

you expect shane to sacrifice himself, and leave his loved ones in the hands of OTIS...the person who shot carl in the 1st place. regardless thats a fact.....shanes NOT a robot...hes a human and he wants to live just like everyone else.....shane is a hero he did offer to sacrifice himself (fact non debatable) and had to kill otis to save carl....i dont see how that is so evil...

okay try this....think real hard.....okay think how would carls + shanes deaths effect the group in this situation? do you think rick and lori would be sane? would the group be safe? im not sure but i mean i dont think you fully understand the importance of the situation. it wasnt just carls/shanes/otis lives on the table.....it was the whole group's.....i think you should show shane some respect for making a decision that had a general positive outcome for the whole group.....

again your probably gona dodge this with the old "we dont know" blah blah blah.....just think of this. when you wait for situations to come to "We know 100% for sure" your probably gona be in too deep and not gona be able to do anything about it. just saying.

 

Ok enough of this... this thread is way to far from the originally post.

If you want to keep fighting about Otis and Shane go make a new thread because this is what this thread was originally about.

 

WRONG again! By episode 7, Carl was well, and they discovered Sophia in the barn.

*sighs* I wonder if you are even understanding what you are reading at this point. I said the opposite of your claim here, and you've pretty much parroted some of what I said.

We already did debate the Otis thing and it is debatable. Evil is your adjective not mine.

*sighs* I have, many times, and did credit him many times, your lack of reading and comprehending my posts won't change that fact.

You aren't even making a lick of sense here. Try to reread my posts again and actually comprehend them this time around. You obviously have not fathomed a damn thing I said, and it's turned you into being down right obnoxious.

 

You're right. Enough is enough, now it's gotten plain stupid and mildly irritating to see lack of comprehension.


Shanefan,

I believe there is a rule on this forum about this sort of thing...


Posting
When posting try to refrain from any nonsense, repetitive, or posts that really offer no value to our members. Cross posting a thread in more than one forum is annoying and thus not allowed. Just post it once in the correct place.


I suggest you follow it from this point on.

 

WTF your wrong.....rewatch the episode.... when talking to rick, BEFORE the barn herschel says to rick that he wansts him off the farm by the end of the week.....thats another FACT youre denying....

 

Obviously Joe you are being listened to......yeah right.


ShaneFan, did you not start your own "Shane" thread??? Seriously dude?? WHY THE HELL ARE YOU ONCE AGAIN DRAGGING THIS THROUGH 3 OR 4 THREADS AT ONE TIME????????????