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Some craziness

Discussion in 'Debaters' started by Morgotha, Feb 28, 2017.

  1. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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  2. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    The secular have their share of nutty beliefs as well. For example, a 6'4" male swimmer is a woman. Not just "claims to be" a woman, "IS" a woman. LOL, religions can't hold a candle to that.
     
  3. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    So now sports have some equivalency to religion? Hmmmm…I’ll have to think about that. I suppose you could make a case for the fervent devotion some sports fans have for their team being akin to some religious followers.

    As for the 6’4” swimmer, is it the height that bothers you? I’m not sure to whom you’re referring but I’d love to know if they have a cult following as well. Unless one lives on the moon, one ought to know that sports is peppered by very tall and well…athletic, lol, players. To name just a few:


    Maria Sharapova – 6’2″
    As one of the tallest women to ever professionally play the game of tennis, the Russian-born Maria Yuryevna Sharapova didn’t move to the United States until the early 1990s.

    [​IMG]
    Margo Dydek – 7’2″
    Hailing out of Warsaw, Poland, Margo Dydek was the tallest WNBA player of all-time. Before retiring to coach for the Northside Wizards in the Queensland Basketball League, Dydek dominated the court as a center on the Connecticut Sun.

    [​IMG]
    Kerri Lee Walsh Jennings – 6’3″
    Alongside teammate Misty May Treanor, Kerri Walsh Jennings has been considered by many to be part of the greatest beach volleyball teams in history. Together they took home gold at the 2004, 2008, and 2012 Summer Olympics.

    [​IMG]
    Yvetta Hlavacova – 6’4.5″
    Croatian long-distance swimmer Yvetta Hlavacova made history in 2006 when she swam across the English Channel in the fastest time ever, clocking in at 7 hours and 25 minutes.

    [​IMG]

    I don’t know her height but she’s a good sized gal

    Holley Mangold – 415 lbs
    As the sister of Jets offensive lineman, Nick Mangold, Holley Mangold had big shoes to fill, literally. Weighing 415 lbs, Mangold is among the largest female Olympic weightlifters in the world.

    [​IMG]

    And one of my personal favorites although she only stands at 5’11” is of course Amy Wambach.

    [​IMG]

    Before you say, but he’s a man, what do the hormones say? Has there been any surgery? With modern medical treatments I would think it’s absolutely possible to change your sex despite the genes for all practical purposes.
     
  4. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't discussing sports, per se, but perhaps the religion of secularism? I thought I was clearly referencing the recent NCAA swimming controversy, but I guess that didn't come across. As a refresher:

    [​IMG]

    https://battleroyaleforums.com/forum/threads/some-craziness.307962/page-366

    Out of these 4 people secularism calls women, one of them is biologically a male. Can you guess which one? Can you guess who won the meet? The secular religion says there is NO difference between these four. I think that's nutty, and that should be obvious to anyone. LOL, I know it will be to their doctors who will give 3 of them are getting pap smears and one a prostate exam. Well... who knows what another 30 years will do to this country? Maybe in the interest of "fairness" no one will get any gender identifying exams or treatment.

    I would disagree completely about being able to change your sex even if you flood someone with hormones. The more we learn about the biologies of men and women we find they are *different* at every level, from the subcellular to the organ level, and beyond to the systems level. I've linked an article below for reference, but the point is that now that people have looked, they've found functional differences between in men and women in the heart, muscle, skin, etc. and have found that the actual expression of *autosomal genes* (our non-sex chromosomes) is different in more than 1/2 of the genes looked at, based on whether one is a male or female! IOW, you don't just have a heart or lungs, you have a *woman's* heart, and a *woman's* lungs that function a bit differently and carry different risk for different diseases, etc.

    So, in the case of athletics, sure, you can knock someone's testosterone down, but how do change the fact that men's and women's bodies just work differently at every level? You can't. I am quite shocked by your post though, I'd never heard Amy Wambach was a "transgendered" person, I'd always thought of her as a woman. I'll have to look in to that!

    https://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12915-017-0352-z


    LOL, and as an afterward, it's funny what publicity can do. When I saw your picture of Wambach, I thought it was Megan Rapinoe at first.

    [​IMG]
     
    #7544 Morgotha, Jul 12, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2022
  5. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I agree some degree of thought control’s involved. I think it’s much easier to make people follow a certain course of behavior if they’re convinced their “immortal soul” will be in jeopardy if they don’t, even if it flies in the face of reason, which is how they get you.

    There’s been plenty of examples of religious leaders from all sorts of religions who take advantage of their flock from pedo priests to televangelists, to polygamist Mormons, and so on and so forth. It’s not always easy to get out but not impossible, thankfully. What I think is interesting is the Amish practice of Rumspringa which allows the older teens to experiment with “worldly” ways before baptism. Most end up back in the community in which they were raised but some may go out in the world.
     
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  6. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    All the women I referenced are biological women. Where did I I say Amy was transgendered? I didn’t. However, all those women would be considered very tall for women. I wonder if they towered over the other girls when they were competing in sports while still in school.

    The article you posted on sex-differential gene expression was interesting. Women have some advantages over men in some departments. How this translates in the world of sports should probably be given more consideration.

    I think society is trying to be inclusive. It’s a social decision, I think, to give people validation in their decision that they are of a different sex as to the one they were born into. Sexual dysphoria has probably always been with us but it’s “come out of the closet” as people attempt to be more understanding.

    *ohhhh, my last paragraph was in reference to the trans swimmer you referenced in your post NOT Amy Wambach, lol. Sorry for the confusion. By the way, Amy attended an all girls Catholic high school, Our Lady of Mercy, lol. Just thought I’d mention that…..
     
    #7546 purriwinkle, Jul 12, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2022
  7. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    The last part of your post was:

    "
    And one of my personal favorites although she only stands at 5’11” is of course Amy Wambach.

    Before you say, but he’s a man, what do the hormones say? Has there been any surgery? With modern medical treatments I would think it’s absolutely possible to change your sex despite the genes for all practical purposes."

    That "but he's a man" bit made me think you were calling Wambach a biological male, which I think is a reasonable conclusion from a fair reading of your post.

    Now that I know that's NOT what you meant, I guess you were looping back to the swimmer, and that person, there's no way that his male genes are NOT a significant factor. LOL, remember this guy was like 263rd on the men's ranking and dropped out of the men's team, and after taking hormones to compete "fairly" with women was number 1 in the women's ranking? That doesn't sound "fair" to me.

    Yes, women and men really are more different than was previously appreciated. As examples we can see with our eyes, men are bigger, stronger and with greater endurance, but OTOH, women live about 5% longer than men (primarily because of men having more heart attacks, strokes, etc., which is another difference) and overall women have a lower chance of contracting infectious diseases. It's a mixed bag in life, but not much of a question who's going to win in sports - unless, like in this case, you take a lousy man and have him compete against good women.

    And there's nothing wrong with being inclusive, UNLESS your definition of inclusion is punishing 1/2 the country to give perks to a few. I can't see how anyone sees that as right.
     
    #7547 Morgotha, Jul 12, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2022
  8. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    I did apologize for the confusion over Amy. I failed to preface my remarks with, getting back to the swimmer, or something of that nature. I was thinking it but didn’t clarify in print.

    Well, TPTB in the sports world need to sort out what they’re gonna do. In the case of the swimmer, it does seem from what you’ve presented, that he might have been only thinking about how he could win not that he always thought of himself as a woman. Of course, if that was the case, it’s not exactly fair….Not only to the women but to true transsexuals who have been functioning as the other sex in some cases since they were very young. I don’t know his story though.

    Sorry for the stream of consciousness approach here but did the article state anywhere what the role of hormones have in gene expression? How ‘bout genetic mutations? The article states: “In all cases, males and females have identical genetic information across most of their genomes, but harbor many distinct sex-specific characteristics.
    Sexually dimorphic traits mainly result from differential expression of genes present in both sexes. Such genes can be subject to different, and even opposing, selection constraints in the two sexes. This can impact human evolution by differential selection on mutations with dissimilar effects on the two sexes.”

    I don’t remember learning any of this back in the day when I took biology, lol, so I find it rather interesting. I’ll re-read it more carefully but I’ve got the Jan.6th committee hearings on right now.
     
  9. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    What's interesting too is how most people have an aversion to Scientology. Yes, they're nuts. But if some other religions were new they would be seen in the same light.
     
  10. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    My position has always been that people can do whatever they want individually as long as they are adults. But when it comes to sports men, who then become trans women, should not be able to compete in sports with biological women. It's ridiculous, particularly when you have steroids rules in these sports. Now a biological male, with the benefit of puberty, who was a mediocre athlete can dominate sports for women.

    I thought I saw an article late last month about an international swimming commission outlawing anyone who went through male puberty participating in women's events. I don't follow swimming so I don't know how far reaching it is, but I think they're now tackling this after this particular simmer was so dominant.
     
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  11. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Not to beat this swimmer thing beyond death, but this guy in particular seems to be a self centered bum, IMO, and probably not representative of the trans movement overall, BUT, society is enabling him to "cheat", and that's not appropriate.

    On the role of hormones in gene expression, I think that definitely plays a part, and would broaden that to say that we are only now beginning to understand how different people really are from each other. When we were going to school, people thought that if you had a gene, you expressed that product. We now know that's just the tip of the iceberg, some things are amplified, some are shut off or restricted... it's a whole new field. So it probably is true that dropping someone's hormone levels will drop the output of certain other things that are produced that are unrelated to biological sex per se, but does it do so to the point where a man really becomes a woman? You'd have to alter the functionality of a full-sized pickup, for example, by a LOT to make it haul the same as a hyundai, and even if you did so, would it be equally reliable? Get the same gas mileage and seat the same number of people as the hyundai, etc.?
     
  12. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Those are interesting questions. Let’s look at the situation. The basic equation is that a male has XY sexual chromosomes and a female XX. It’s how the fetus develops it’s rudimentary sexual anatomy which let’s us know at birth, whether we have a boy or a girl, right? At puberty, hormones will initiate further gene expression related to sexual maturation of the two sexes in order for reproduction to occur. I would imagine that the differences we then see as a result of this gene expression shows up, as the article you referenced, in various organs, muscle mass, disease susceptibility, etc. HOWEVER things don’t always go that smoothly.

    Although uncommon, some children are born hermaphrodites or what we now call intersex possessing both male and female gonads…From wiki:

    “The term intersex describes a wide variety of combinations of what are considered male and female biological characteristics. Intersex biology may include, for example, ambiguous-looking external genitalia, karyotypes that include mixed XX and XY chromosome pairs (46XX/46XY, 46XX/47XXY or 45X/XY mosaic). Clinically, medicine currently describes intersex people as having disorders of sex development, a term vigorously contested.[60][61] This is particularly because of a relationship between medical terminology and medical intervention.[62]


    Some men are born with an extra X chromosome which results in Klinefelter syndrome which can “muddy the waters” so to speak for those individuals.
    https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/klinefelter-syndrome/symptoms-causes/syc-20353949


    Women can have excess testosterone after maturation (women naturally do produce testosterone) due to a number of factors which can result in physical manifestations.
    https://www.webmd.com/women/guide/normal-testosterone-and-estrogen-levels-in-women

    Men also have estrogen which can increase as their testosterone decreases with age, again resulting in physical manifestations.
    https://www.healthline.com/health/estrogen-in-men

    So what’s the point? We’re getting there:rolleyes:, but the question being examined is what is a woman and conversely, I would think, is what is a man physically?

    You basically mused whether or not adjusting certain hormonal levels could truly make a person who starts out as one sex into the other. I think it certainly deserves some thought. Let’s briefly digress into sexual dysphoria which is defined as :

    Gender dysphoria (GD) is the distress a person feels due to a mismatch between their gender identity—their personal sense of their own gender—and their sex assigned at birth.[5][6]

    So NOW we’re mixing the brain into the equation which explains why someone would even want to change genders. I’m getting a headache, lol.

    So, ok. We have an individual who claims that from a very young age they felt as though they were in the wrong body…that they were actually a member of the opposite sex. I think that perhaps there are no scientific tests to confirm such so it’s basically subjective and based on those feelings and perhaps behavior exhibited by the said individual. If the child is PRE puberty, and the parents and the medical experts agree, I imagine hormonal regulation will alter how those certain sexual genes are expressed. As an adult they can pursue surgery to alter their genitalia. I even read that there have been some successful uterine transplants into trans women that resulted in live births no less!
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6492192/
    *suggested reading for Josh Hawley, lol

    As we also know, cis women lose their outer and inner sexual apparatus all the time mainly due to cancer but also other debilitating conditions that require surgical removal. Does that make them less than a woman?

    I’ve actually been convinced that sexual identity can be a complicated thing after all, ya know? Not so cut and dry.
    Getting around to the problem with the student swimmer as I understand it, is when a person goes through puberty as their original sex, gaining the traits that go along with that, does it make competition unfair? I can see where there might be an unfair advantage. Maybe the answer does lie in prohibiting those men who make their physical transformation after puberty from participating in female sports. However, because of all the ambiguity, I’m relieved that I don’t really give much of a sh*t. It’s just a very sticky dilemma.
    *shrugs”

     
    #7552 purriwinkle, Jul 14, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2022
  13. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    You can dress up anything as a religion. I don’t see much difference myself in Scientology from any other religion. There are two rules that alone should be enough to right a lot of problems if people followed through. Where it comes to each other, treat others the way you would want to be treated and where it comes to the Earth and our environment, don’t foul your own nest. That’s enough “religion” for me.
     
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  14. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    The thing is though, I don't think going through puberty is the problem, it's the differences in the genes themselves and their expression in the cells that probably starts in the first trimesters of development. I think it's unfair to have people who are xy competing with people who are xx even as children. I wouldn't draw a puberty line as the cutoff, and I think the only reason people are doing so is they don't understand (as no one does yet) the true differences between the sexes. BTW, I don't think I'm the font of wisdom on the subject either, but I have seen enough biological "truths" be reversed or changed to know a problem with the current belief when I see it, and when new "science" is being pushed for political reasons and not factual reasons? That should set off alarm bells in anyone's head.

    To your next point, I agree. Biology isn't math, there's what's true for "most" people, and then there are outliers. Society should strive to be fair to the majority, at least. There's no way we're going to achieve 100% fairness for 100% of the population, and in this instance trying to make things "fair" for the vocal minority is grossly UNfair to the majority. That is wrong.
     
  15. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    The January 6th Hearings have been really damning. From what I've heard they're going to do another prime time hearing in which they'll outline how Trump tried to tamper with witnesses.

    The only thing worse though than not having the hearing, and bringing this information to light, would be to then not prosecute the people involved. I know the justice system often moves slowly, but if the DOJ passes on all of this then it's a complete travesty.
     
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  16. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Remember that the FBI "lost its notes" regarding Hillary's laptop, AND agreed to let her staffers erase their laptops *prior to the FBI seeing what was on them* in exchange for their testimony. Now we find that the Secret Service has *deleted* their texts that took place in the days leading up to and the day of Jan. 6th.

    If the government is shielding the lawbreakers in one party and trying to punish those in the other, that's government corruption, not justice. Attempting to prosecute Trump in light of what Dems have gotten away with is a political prosecution, nothing more.

    If Biden still had his faculties I bet he'd pardon Trump like Ford pardoned Nixon... but I doubt Biden's handler's want that.
     
  17. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    Is it though? If this statement from your reference article is true,
    “In all cases, males and females have identical genetic information across most of their genomes”, then hormones have to be the catalyst for the same genes present in both sexes to express differently, but as you say, further research into the subject is needed for clarification.

    So, see how it feels for for a vocal minority to make things “unfair” for the majority? Of course, I’m referring to abortion.

    https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-ta...rtion-should-be-legal-in-all-or-most-cases-2/

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/23167397/abortion-public-opinion-polls-americans

    https://www.npr.org/2022/06/27/1107...ts-abortion-ruling-and-worry-about-other-righ
     
  18. purriwinkle

    purriwinkle Well-Known Member

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    We can only wait and see what the DOJ will do. I agree with you that the information provided by Republican witnesses themselves in the course of these meetings has been pretty bad. At the very least, all the lawyers involved in promoting the “Big Lie” should be disbarred.

    * While not directly related, I wouldn’t shed a tear if Mike Lindell’s company went bust either, but that’s just me.;)
     
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  19. Stealth

    Stealth Well-Known Member

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    I always felt that the best chance of an indictment would come out of Fulton County in Georgia regarding the election tampering. I'd still put my money there. But the evidence on the national level now, after these hearings, I think is even stronger for federal charges. I have increasing doubts though about Merrick Garland.

    The biggest problem here is that he could run again. That would shatter what's left of our whole system. And this could've all been handled with an impeachment and conviction in the Senate, with the punishment being unable to run again.

    I'd take that "deal" right now, in exchange for no prosecution but that's never going to happen.
     
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  20. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    If the Republicans prosecuted him, that would be one thing, but if the Dems prosecute him now? You'll find you've opened the door for the opposing political party to punish any President they want (or will prosecute just to score political points with their base).

    In any event, if Trump gets prosecuted you can bet your bottom dollar that once the Repubs get back in power Biden will be prosecuted as well for all the shady stuff that he's done with Hunter. At the end of the day, prosecuting Trump will probably do more damage to our democracy than NOT prosecuting him. Hmm... given that the left really does seem to want to destroy our country, perhaps in the big picture that's part of the plan.
     

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