Yeah, while I do genuinely agree with Jesus, it also helps that I LOVE him as a character. #PRAISEHIM

 

I love his character too. I just happen to think he's dead wrong in this instance.

 

How 'bout a compromise - kill 1/2 of them - that way you don't have to choose either team!

Just kidding! Team Jesus! You have to stop the killing somewhere and start rebuilding.

 

YES.

 

well, i picked Jesus, because they (survivors) are not savages for God's sake. they're just trying to take back their freedom by taking the reasons down. they didnt come to kill EVERYbody. so those who surrender may live. (we all know that some of the people working for Negan actually HAVE TO do that, they're not there willingly!)
But i have to say tho he was so dead wrong about letting Dean go (that asshole who was about to kill them both!)
your mercy should be on a person who surrender but not a person that tries to kill you and your friends !!
anyways, some of the surrenderers must die, like Gregory!!

 

oh yeah EXACTLY!! i forgot about that one !!
he's Gregory type of surrenderer!! a coward who bullies when he's in power and hide when he's not!!

 

I agree about Dean and Jared (long hair dude that killed Benjamin). They showed they are ready to kill no matter. It is the people who are aligned with Negan who wish to break free and join a community, be productive, take back their lives - these are the people who should have a chance to prove their worth.

 

They've surrendered only because they've lost the upper hand at the moment. It would simply be a self preservation move based on past encounters with the Saviors. I would not relish it and would most likely feel guilt over it, but I wouldn't risk my children's lives on it. These guys were armed fighters, I would feel differently if they came upon low level workers, children, even Negans' wives. Situation reversed, those people would kill you and yours just like they have in the past.

 

We almost see it with Morgan, right before Jesus stops him. When he approached Jared, he pointed his gun at Jared's heart.

I think there are unspoken moments where a character wants more than just death. They want the person to turn, as an added insult. Like if killing someone is a 10 on the scale of "worst things you can do". Killing them and letting them turn is a 15. Way off the charts.

Rick says it about the termites, he didn't want Daryl to stab them in the head. I think that was Daryl's motivation earlier when he shot Mitch in the heart not the head. Close range, great shot, he meant to kill him and let him turn.

I think that was what Morgan wanted to do with Jared. That is also losing humanity. When simply killing someone isn't enough. Like as you pointed out, Rick letting that savior be eaten to death, slowly.

 

So how did Jesus seem to Come to Jesus just when he did and not consider this possibility of prisoners before the plan was set into action?

Part of the problem was when Tara was ready to do what must be done he stepped in with no warning and she was all like "Wait,WTF?"!

They should have had this discussed and agreed to from the start.

I have a tough time imagining with a plan this involved that the notion of prisoners was never brought up?

I have a solution too I think.

Take them and lock them inside the fence at the Wolves Jukebox Trap and let them figure it out!
It would give them more of a chance than they ever gave Lucille's victims and keep them occupied while the plan continues to unfold!

Quick someone send a Raven to Jesus and tell him of this idea!

Or can I just vote to Kill them all twice?

 

It's also a bit strange that not too long ago Jesus was fine with sneaking in and killing people in their sleep. Now he doesn't want to let Tara kill someone who just had a gun to his head.

 

Maybe the reason or 'excuse' is that those sleeping people has not surrendered or expressed their wish to surrender. And so, he can justify killing them.

BTW, the Jesus camp people should explain how the captured prisoners are fed and how they are securely confined (in what space). Just saying 'they should not be killed' is not enough.

 

That would be a terrible justification. They weren't surrendering because they were sleeping. Never had the chance.

If I had to explain his logic I would guess that he simply had a change of heart. That being part of murdering sleeping people had an effect on him and he decided that people need to be given the chance to surrender first.

 

I agree. In fact, I cannot explain his logic. Maybe, as you said, a change of heart. But perhaps too sudden. No previous sign at all in the show for this change of heart. It just pops up.

His case is similar to Morgan's. When Morgan was in his 'all lives are precious' mode, he even did not want to kill those who were still attacking him. Remember the wolves attacking ASZ? He just wanted to incapacitate the wolves and kept them alive. The wolves were not surrendering. So, Jesus, at this point, has not reached this level yet.

I just wonder, why the show writers develop this Jesus character in this way. Maybe something down the road for this character? Any comment from comic readers?

 

i voted for Jesus first, but now i changed my mind since last episode. it's not like i say "oh i dont like this character anymore"...no, i still like him but i think he's wrong at this point !!
(plus i still cant get it that how he was ok with killing bunch of people in their SLEEP, but not killing them in the MIDDLE of a fight !! (maybe if they were awake they wouldve express they surrender !!))

they are ruthless murderers and if they surrendered, it's just because they werent in a situation to resist !! simply if they had the upper hand, they wouldve been that asshole bullies that they actually are !! not killing them and worse than that, letting them IN is such a huge mistake when they are living in a total mess right now.

I mean yes, i'm agreed the killing must stop somewhere and peace starts; i do believe they have to find a way to live with them and make peace; but it only happens IF they WIN!! and they will win IF they first FIGHT!! when you fight, you dont negotiate, you dont hesitate; you just fight !! and when the fight is over and everything is settled and done, now it's time to make peace with those who are willing to !!
Their fight is not even near to end !! they're IN THE MIDDLE of a WAR !!!

so i think yes, he'S RIGHT, but NOT FOR NOW !

 

What I love about this is that it brings the dilemma presented in Judge, Jury, Executioner back on a much larger scale. They were seriously stumped about what to do with just one guy, Randall, with Dale leading the argument for humanity. That entire debate has come roaring back. Remember the things they said?

Shane: "Look, say we let him join us, right? Maybe he's helpful, maybe he's nice. We let our guard down and maybe he runs off,brings back his 30 men."

Dale: "So the answer is to kill him to prevent a crime he may never even attempt? If we do this, we're saying there's no hope. Rule of law is dead, there is no civilization."

Then

Dale: "Is this what it's come to? We kill someone 'cause we can't decide what else to do with him? Blah blah...how are we any better than the people we're so afraid of?"

And I love it! Makes me feel like Dale lives on, and with this coupled with Glenn referencing him in Season 6, makes me happy. I love this whole kind of grey area, complex debate. And more I'd like to add.

After that debate with Dale, it was all about the loss of morality, hope, and civilization, descending further into darkness all the way until Alexandria. From that point on starting with Season 6 it's then slowly about starting to bring humanity and civilization back, regaining what was lost (which makes the Dale reference by Glenn, another moralistic character, quite fitting).

I mean, you have to realize these are supposed to be the good guys we're rooting for. They can't all be driven by hate, rage, and revenge, and it doesn't make sense for Jesus to be driven by these things because he hasn't suffered a huge major loss at the hands of the saviors like some of our other characters. He's pragmatic and calm, he knows the threat and danger of the saviors, but he hasn't been driven to a dark enough level to want them all dead (not yet anyway). You also have to realize, that due to the complexity of human nature, everything isn't black and white, there are shades of grey everywhere. Not everybody is purely good or purely evil. We see both good and evil in Rick. We see glimmers of empathy and humanity in Negan, who is seemingly on a redemption arc in the comics (According to Kirkman Issue 174 is about to confirm is Negan really is rehabilitated, which I am excited for). This is a theme the series has explored time and time again. Shane wasn't completely bad, Rick killing him I view as extremely necessary but also a damn tragedy and it rips my heart out. The Governor had a chance to come back and almost did, but he chose to jump off the deep end. Maggie even says to Tara in Season 6, talking about Glenn giving Nicholas a second chance, that she wanted to kill Nicholas but remembered that Tara was on the opposite side from them "on the worst day of her life." Do I need to go on? In short, it's proven that both sides happen; taking a risk and trusting the wrong person backfires, but other times it pays off.

I agree that the main flaw here though is that the subject of surrender should've been brought up before, but the premiere was too busy with its artsiness and poetic speeches to ever touch on it. But I atritbute that to the writers wanting this to be a surprise of sorts, an Uh Oh sort of moment for us. But I cannot wait to see what results, and what I'm really hoping to see is that BOTH sides end up right; maybe some saviors escape, and some cause trouble and death, while some end up as valuable allies.

Sorry for typing so much but this is a deep, complex issue that's worth more "than a 5 minute conversation" to quote Dale. I think the show would be boring if in All Out War our supposed heroes are just altogether bloodthirsty and murder everyone in their way no questions asked, and what's more, it factually wouldn't fit in line with themes the show has explored in the past and still does now.