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Them [510]- Criticisms and Complaints

Discussion in 'Episode 510 - Them' started by Neuropyramidal, Feb 12, 2015.

  1. VickGrimes

    VickGrimes Well-Known Member

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    I'm not one to pick apart the tv shows that I watch - I watch TWD because I love it, and also because I'm a shameless Rick fangirl. RE: the frogs...I accepted that as visual storytelling and nothing more. Hey look, they are so out of water even the frogs are dying. HALP.
     
  2. Camilleyun

    Camilleyun Well-Known Member

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    I agree about the prison fence, I thought there must be a Home Depot somewhere in Georgia for reinforcements, but personally would have opted for trying to create a diversion to lead them away, but I guess it illustrated the false sense of security while Rick was playing farmer. Then everyone got sick and they didn't have the manpower to guard the fences.

    As for the white sheet, I assumed that came from Noah's house. Never gave it a thought. Season 5 is the first season I've watched by episode - I literally binge watched every prior season last July, and then watched S 4 on Netflix so I never had time to break down each episode, never had season or mid season breaks/finales to mull over details. I did have some moments, like when Dale was driving the camper and commented they would need to find gas...when there were bumper to bumper cars on the other side of the highway. I guess I just don't let that ruin the show for me.I still have trouble separating which season is which. I actually prefer watching it this way, but know I couldn't not watch each week since I've become a fan.

    some things, like the frogs, I think are just meant to drive home the feelings they're trying to convey. They probably opted to show them on their backs so there's no question that they were dead, or else there's gonna be those viewers who are like..why didn't they eat the frogs???

    No offense, but your "mental space" comment kinda weirds me out. Good chat, though...

    *retreats to personal mental space, backs out of discussion slowly*
     
  3. sam12six

    sam12six Member

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    It doesn't ruin the show for me, either. It would just make the show better if they'd do a better job of eliminating glaring idiocy like what you mention here. I didn't even remember the comment about the gas, I was too busy wondering why they let him keep driving that old piece of shit that constantly broke down instead of heading to the closest RV dealership and getting a couple of brand new RVs for the crew to live in relative luxury.

    There's nothing offensive about that. I stomp ass playing along with Jeopardy, but absolutely suck playing along with The Family Feud, so I've known for a long time that my view on things tends to not match up with a typical person's view on the same things.


    I think hate-watch would be a slight exaggeration (speaking only for myself). I think it's still as good as the average TV show, but I don't find the average TV show good enough to watch regularly. It's not that I hate it (beyond the fact that I hate what it has become compared to what it once was), just that I'm rapidly reaching indifferent.

    Well, regardless of what a given species does in the situation, anyone who thinks about it for 2 seconds must agree that they don't roll over and die on the spot. To see several dead together that way, only the grinning idiots would say, "Well, it's really dry. Didn't you notice that the group is out of water, too?"

    but

    The writers either are grinning idiots themselves or assume we are and a bunch of dead frogs in a stream bed is indeed their sledgehammer subtle way of saying it's dryer than normal. Only we nitpickers are left shaking our heads and muttering, "But they're not fish. If the stream dries up, they don't immediately fall over dead, they look for water (burrow into the ground, whatever), so the scene actually indicates something else, something the show will never explore."

    No, not everyone who doesn't nitpick is a grinning idiot. The grinning idiots tend to be the ones who argue with any criticism of any aspect of the show and their argument boils down to, "It's TWD. Leave it alone!!"

    Not being able to see the trees for the forest would be awesome. I've said before (truthfully) that I'm envious of people who can watch shows or movies and NOT notice things that are wrong. I can only imagine how relaxing that would be.

    Someone who just doesn't see the trees responds to criticism of a nitpicky thing (if they respond at all) by saying the detail is so minor that it doesn't take away from his or her viewing experience. The grinning idiots insist on trying to convince you a van can, indeed, suddenly make a very quick rotation to land on its tires because it happened on TWD and TWD is perfect. They've already convinced themselves and insist on trying to convince you that the show's writers are too subtle in their imagery for you to understand and that if you were better at reading nuance, whatever detail you find problematic would make sense.

    The fact is, the TWD writers are about this subtle:

    [video=youtube;2o7V1f7lbk4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2o7V1f7lbk4[/video]




    Anyway, the discussion we've been having isn't about a nitpicky detail. It's about a fundamental aspect of the TWD world - how the takeover occurred. Since the show doesn't really tell us, any opinion is as valid as any other. I find it fascinating how we can all look at the same evidence (the conditions we see in the show) and form such a differing image of how the outbreak must have gone down.

    Edit because I missed this post earlier:

    I think some misunderstood my comment. I wasn't saying anyone who likes the show in spite of the little detail issues is a grinning idiot. Just that the people who either try to pretend there are no detail issues or insist on trying to justify them through some mental gymnastics are giving the writers a free pass.

    Like I've said, for some of us, Rick's gun not having any kickback indicates that Rick's gun fired no bullet. If that doesn't have any effect on your enjoyment of a scene, great. Some of us just feel like attention to detail (I'd say realism if it weren't a dirty word sure to invite morons whose response would just be, "Itz a sho abt zombies!! derp...")

    Even when the show was a magical thing to me, I had problems with these things (like the fortified army positions being overrun in Atlanta - you know how many zombies a handful of tanks could eliminate? All of them). That doesn't equal not liking the show, just the desire to voice the concept that the show would be better without these jarring illogical things.
     
    #303 sam12six, Feb 20, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
  4. CoyoteTWD

    CoyoteTWD Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough and I understand your viewpoint. I do notice flaws and inconsistencies but I am very adept at suspending belief to just enjoy the theater of the show. And I suppose I'm a bit hypocritical because there are times in shows where I yell at the TV for doing something totally unrealistic. I haven't analyzed when I do that but I'd guess that it is mostly when I am not enjoying the story of the show and those inconsistencies really stand out to me. I definitely get more annoyed when a show has a character do something completely out of character with no explanation than a show that fudges some details in order to make a point or to move a character arc forward.

    Thanks for taking the time to explain your position.
     
  5. sam12six

    sam12six Member

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    This drives me nuts, too. I'm pretty infamous here as a rabid Rick hater, but this character inconsistency is the reason I hated the character so much.

    Each new half season had a totally new Rick. By the end of 3 seasons, you could never predict whether you were going to get a reaction from officer friendly, batshit crazy, ricktator, determined everyman trying to survive the apocalypse, farmer green jeans or any other incarnation of his character. In spite of this crazy personality changing, the group has consistently accepted his leadership. This pisses me off. I simply can't imagine following someone whose personality changes so drastically so frequently. Therefore, I hate Rick (or rather what the writers have done with the character).

    I can totally see Carol's personality change as circumstances have convinced her that she needs to become harder and less emotional to cope. I can even see Tyreese's personality change as someone who's been broken by the world. The personality changes Rick's gone through, though, that's rubber room territory. You wouldn't necessarily throw someone like that to the zombies, but I don't see how you could look to him to make the decisions that determine whether you live or die, either.

    I've also learned to ignore things. For the longest time, it drove me insane that the trained deputy in a small Georgia town didn't know how to hold a gun (much less that he consistently hit headshot after headshot in the heat of battle). Eventually, I just learned to ignore any details associated with Rick shooting (or Michonne using a katana). Because of this, I didn't even notice the kickback thing until I read that thread...
     
  6. offrope

    offrope Active Member

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    Jenner said in his recording at the CDC, "It's been 194 days since Wildfire was declared, and 63 days since the disease abruptly went global". This sounds like the disease was either released accidentally, or was first discovered, and was a somewhat localized event. Then after about 4.5 months "went global" almost overnight. So people would have heard about it happening somewhere else for a while, then been suddenly overwhelmed. Assuming that the "somewhere else" where it was localized was in Europe or Australia or wherever, it would have taken the US completely by surprise when it abruptly went global.
     
    #306 offrope, Feb 20, 2015
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2015
  7. Prufrock

    Prufrock Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Sometimes things have symbolism, sometimes not.

    i think it was fitting, though that Sasha was the one to kick up the dry creek bed and see the frogs. Was she as dead/dry as that area?

    ill take it either way, with the storytelling.

    I like that there are no black & white areas. There is room for discussion and opinions.
     
  8. rustybag

    rustybag Member

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    This type of thing is something that I have noticed also. I thought the original director Frank Darabont had a very good understanding of human nature/ the human condition, and how people of various personality types and backgrounds would react to events. As a matter a fact, sometimes I will talk to people about the show who have never seen it, I tell them just watch season 1. Just to see how 6 episodes could have drawn so many people from different cultures & various ages and walks of life in. He really seemed to "get" people.

    Something was lost after they fired him and brought new people in, The type of thing you are mentioning with Rick being different people or acting way out of character is something I have noticed too. Last season a couple of the things they did with the governor really bugged me. Actually, this last episode the Michonne scene pushing for Washington didn't sit well with me, either. I would have expected it from Beth in an earlier season maybe, but you would think Michonne, being the individualist that she is, after everything they they have been through when encountering other groups, would be the last person to suggest heading towards a location where large amounts of people would most likely have gathered. She's no fool when it comes to groups, power dynamics, the hierarchies that get established, the greed and "group think". It's weird to me that they had her of all people push for it.

    The practical "how thing really work" stuff (except on tv) I try to ignore too. The worst for me is people constantly being in the line of fire & somehow not getting shot :/
     
  9. Neuropyramidal

    Neuropyramidal Well-Known Member

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    True, and we don't even know what 'wildfire' was. But to be honest, the CDC storyline really made little sense. The idea that they had known about the problem for 4.5 months, yet somehow hadn't even isolated the type of pathogen [virus vs. bacteria vs. fungus] is ridiculous. And the image they showed us under the microscope when Jenner looked at it was worthy of a Saturday morning cartoon. It showed what the average 15 year old high school student pictures DNA as looking like. In the TWD universe, apparently you can watch a pathogen's DNA replicate under a microscope, but still not be sure whether its a fungus or a bacteria lol. Those scenes were totally ignorant of science. Kirkman has stated in interviews that some of the things shown at the CDC were a mistake, and he's right.
     
  10. Camilleyun

    Camilleyun Well-Known Member

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    Yeah but it gives us a timetable of sorts.
    Besides, I'm from Ohi-uh, we don't go in fer all that fancy book learnin' and we shore nuff don't savvy no foreign lingo...science, cipherin'...it taint right...
     
  11. and138

    and138 Well-Known Member

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    I took note of the scene because the camera lingered so long on Sasha's face as she was regarding the frogs. It seemed to flag something. If they'd been travelling in drought conditions for a few days, then finding a dried-up creek bed would be frustrating but not out of the ordinary. To me, Sasha looked as if seeing the dead frogs was surprising or weird. And yes, I agree with you (holy shit!) that it seems strange for so many frogs to fall over dead in that one area. I guess we'll have to keep watching to find out if that scene was indicating that something is happening to dry up the creek and/or poison the frogs, or if TPTB just wanted make it very, very obvious to viewers that there has been a drought.

    I see the trees, but I don't get distracted by them to the point where they blind me to the forest or ruin my enjoyment of the show, unless it's an egregious tree like the van drop you mention. (That was bad. I understand that they had only so many vans to drop over the bridge to get the shot, but you'd think something better could have been done in editing. I would have been okay with it if they'd trimmed the shot of the van falling, so that we didn't see it start to flip over.)

    The viewer has to be able to suspend their disbelief -- it's a show about dead people coming back to life, after all -- and I agree that having too many small errors will lead to believability issues. But it's also a complex show with so many small details that are done right that it's easy for me to get caught up in the drama and action and not notice or care about nitpicky fails.

    And to be fair, there is a lot of symbolism and nuance, and there are a lot of people who miss it. :p

    I suppose there will always be those who want to nitpick and those who want to champion the show against the nitpickers. 'Tis the way of the forum. :Grin:

    Now you're making me want to rewatch all the old Wayans brothers films. :zombies_lol:
     

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