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Was Rick justified in killing Bob #2?

Discussion in 'Episode 508 - Coda' started by Alina, Dec 1, 2014.

  1. Esse

    Esse Member

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    That's not being selfish, that's being 'weak'/'unprepared' ... and in cases like that ( when it's a reaction to a profound psychological and emotional stress ) you don't actually choose to be delusional. It's more complicated than that.

    In fact no one is justifying it. Did you chose to ignore the fact that we all agree that it was stupid? No one said that Rick had to keep adding more walkers in the barn.

    What we agree with is the choice of a more calm approach aimed to make the older man see the absurdity and danger of his delusion without unnecessary violence.

    There is a huge difference there that for some reason you refuse to acknowledge.


    Seeing Rick helping Hershel was the last straw that made him literally explode but Shane decided to act before that and precisely after his conversation with Lori.

    He didn't need to do anything in that moment. There was no urgency at all. If there was I'd agree with him.


    What? I really don't understand what you are saying here.

    Being irrational/hot-headed and reckless can get people killed not having emotions per se. Because having emotions doesn't mean being unable to control them.
     
    #261 Esse, Dec 23, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2014
  2. Necrophile213

    Necrophile213 Well-Known Member

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    By saying that Shane was in the wrong for acting when he did and that He should not have intervened when Rick was putting Walkers in the barn, you are saying that continuing to add walkers to the barn and continuing to feed into Hershels delusions until he was good and ready to let them go is the right thing to do. Also when Shane decided to act is not only irrelevant but also speculation. It wasn't until he saw that those doors were about to be open that he acted. People think about doing things all day. It's not until they choose to act on those thoughts that matter.
     
  3. Necrophile213

    Necrophile213 Well-Known Member

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    My argument isn't based on what might have happened. It is based on the scenario of how Rick should react IF he was placed in a situation of having to leave. I'm basically just trying to get you to see that property ownership doesn't mean shit in their world and that Hershel even considering sending them out there would be far less humane than Shane killing walkers in the barn. I just can't see how Hershel's feelings take priority over the safety of the group. I just feel that Rick had tried to do it the easy way and reason with him, but at the moment that he asked Rick to get those walkers in the barn is when the line was crossed. Reasoning with him using diplomacy wasn't going to work. Shane's way eliminated the zombies and provided the shock necessary to snap Hershel out of his delusion, plus they weren't kicked off the farm.
     
  4. raven n

    raven n Well-Known Member

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    First of all, "BOB' & his group Rescued' people by hitting them with their car! Second, BOB really hurt Ty's sister when she was trying to do something for him - I understand the need to escape, but if they hadn't bee such a big bunch of assholes & slavers to begin with, Rick might have been more inclined to be merciful. Third, after hitting him with the car (which was a deliberate piece of irony on Rick's part, considering what the escapee told him they did to 'rescue' people), it was most likely that he DID break his back or neck, in which case death was a mercy because he could have left him there to be EATEN alive. Rick has shown mercy & been screwed over again & again. I don't blame him for being 'ruthless'. I just wish Dawn hadn't felt the need to 'assert her authority' in demanding that poor guy back. That dumb bitch deserved to die more painfully than she did because her weakness caused who knows how much suffering & death.
     
  5. Esse

    Esse Member

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    What Shane did was wrong regardless of what Rick did. Because it put everyone in danger and caused even more serious problems that could have been avoided. Had he acted and intervened to do something actually useful and that could have helped their condition instead of worsening it than it would have been different.

    So by saying how counter-productive, risky, dangerous and short-sighted Shane's approach was I'm pointing out how counter-productive, risky, dangerous and short-sighted Shane's approach was. And I'm definitely not saying that Rick should have kept bringing walkers to the barn until Hershel was good and ready.

    I don't even know how could you reach that conclusion because it completely ignores what I actually said in my posts and reduce the alternatives to Shane's approach to "Rick spending weeks bringing more walkers to the barn waiting for Hershel to see the light" - that is just your own speculation about what Rick was going to do.

    It's a deduction and it's relevant because it helps understand all the reasons why he did it, his frame of mind at the moment and his POV. Without considering those things he would be just a short-tempered idiot putting everyone in danger. But it's not like that. He had his reasons to react in that way and make that mistake, so it's 'important' to point them out.
     
  6. LadyGrimes

    LadyGrimes Well-Known Member

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    Shane was already seeing red after Lori rejected him, which is why he turned into the jealous ex boyfriend who acted out and tried to find fault in everything Rick did in order to justify his reasons for wanting him dead. A good example of this is when Shane saw Rick helping Hershel with the walkers. That is why he decided to show Rick he was the better man and show the others he can get rid of the threat, not contribute to it. IMO Shane's actions towards the end were geared towards him trying to be "better" and prove to Lori he was the better lover and protector.
     
  7. raven n

    raven n Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Shane did what he did because in his anger, he'd reduced himself to a chest-pounder & felt the need to prove his Alpha male status to everyone -but especially Lori. However, when he saw carol's little girl shamble out of the barn, all his testosterone seemed to leak away & only Rick had what it took to do what needed doing - and of course Shane blamed him for that too. Most of them seemed to forget that they were 'guests' on that land & even though I thought Hershel was a Bonehead to keep the Walkers in the first place -it was the choice him and his family made before Rick's group came along (Carl's shooting notwithstanding). Maybe if Shane had had enough sense to back off for a few weeks & let Lori cool off (even with the hormones surging from the pregnancy) he might have had a chance to be part of her life - & if only he hadn't wanted to BE Rick so badly- instead of getting offed while in the process of trying to bushwhack Rick. I also believe that if he'd succeeded, others in the group - including Carl - would have been next on his hit list.
     
  8. jared2213

    jared2213 Member

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    Nothing wrong with what Rick did. Sure, it adds a little to the story line of Rick losing his humanity a little bit. Other than that, Bob knocked Sasha out and was fleeing back to the hospital.
    In the end, it was messed up but everything is messed up in the ZA. Do what you gotta do Rick.

     
  9. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Hmm.. have to disagree here. Rick was always there for Carl when he was growing up, and now is almost literally back from the dead. Now Lori finds herself pregnant and under stress, with all the mood swings, etc., she may tell Rick on a daily basis how much she hates him, but I bet when she gets panicked he's the one she runs to. No, I have to think Shane read this one correctly, as long as Rick is around, his chances with Lori are very low. If nothing else, Guilt alone will keep Lori from leaving Rick for some time!
     
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  10. raven n

    raven n Well-Known Member

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    Yes & no. She didn't 'Hate' Rick exactly, but she had the same problem most cops wives often suffer from: Frustrated loneliness caused by 'The Job'. Add to that the way Shane lied to her about him being dead, her having a relationship with him, the pregnancy hormone roller coaster ride (& no idea who the dad is) & of course the ZA sending everything into a tailspin, I'm surprised she's even coherent! I didn't mean that Lori would take Shane back as a lover: I meant that in time she might allow him to be an 'uncle figure' to the children, if he backed off & let her have some emotional ( & physical) breathing room. And when I said Shane might kill Carl, I didn't mean soon. Lets say the Judith was indeed his & lets say that Carl, as he gets older, might realize Shane had murdered his dad - thru something Shane says or does, he is after all, turning Psycho - and this would make Carl a threat. He has killed in cold blood before (twice, at this point & they say it becomes easier the more you kill). Also Carl might grow to resemble his dad; reminding Shane of the man he murdered & with his psyche, he might feel the need to 'kill' Rick again. He might also see Carl as a sort of 'rival' for Lori's affection. Remember, at this point, Shane's spool is unwinding, so how long before he killed others who he perceived as 'In His Way'? I'm sure Daryl would have gotten on that list, along with Andrea & definitely Dale. He probably would have done a lot of damage to the group before someone put him down or else screwed up & gotten himself - or the whole group - killed.
     
  11. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    I didn't mean she REALLY hated Rick, or maybe it would be better to say she hated him in that instant, but not overall, but would just tell him "I hate you" because she was angry or hurt about something. Shane. Did he really think Rick was still alive when he first started "dating" Lori? I'd bet not, I bet in his mind at least he put Rick down as dead. As far as his position with Lori, I can't imagine that after being her lover he'd want to go back to being a "friend", and with Rick knowing about their relationship, how strained would THAT be?

    It would be better if one of them left the picture, IMO. I see what you're saying about Carl, if Shane kills Rick and Lori accepts it, someday he well could see Carl as a threat to "his" family and make an accident happen. At his age and armed, Carl is a threat. I think he'd likely stop there, as his instability seems not so much general as focused on Lori and Carl. -- I don't know though, he did work over Carol's husband pretty good, and I can't remember if this was before or after the love triangle drama started. If Shane decided to keep killing, he'd (or rather I'd) start with Dale. Those eyebrows and I'm-sitting-in-the-RV-but-will-tell-you-how-to-act self-righteousness would put him up there on the list. :)

    One thing I definitely agree with, anyone with a screw loose is a serious danger to the group. Much more dangerous than any outside predator could be.
     
  12. raven n

    raven n Well-Known Member

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    He beat up that walking diaper stain AFTER Lori told hi to stay away from her son. And i also think Lori would have eventally realized at some point Rick's death was more than it seemed & if Carl had an 'accident' she'd know it was murder & probably feed Shane some poisoned mushrooms with his dinner or else give him an 'accident' involving a Walker & a blunt instrument.
     
  13. Mr Samhain

    Mr Samhain Member

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    It's a tough one. I really think that Lamson was a decent guy who was just paranoid and untrustworthy in this new world, kind of like how Rick has been known to be himself.
     
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  14. westwingnut

    westwingnut Well-Known Member

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    I agree that Shane had the capacity to kill Carl and anyone else if he thought it necessary to keeping Lori and his unborn child.

    But I have a hard time imagining a scenario where Shane would have had the means and opportunity to do such a thing. By the time Shane took Rick out into the field, Daryl had informed the others that Shane had killed Randall, and Dale had told Lori that Shane had played a role in Otis' death. So given the scenario wherein Shane killed Rick and the farm was not overrun, I imagine that the whole group, including Lori, would have evicted Shane from the farm that same night.
     
  15. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. My memory of the first couple seasons is getting a bit hazy. I agree though, how many "accidents" can one have?
     
  16. Morgotha

    Morgotha Well-Known Member

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    If that happened in the show NOW, I don't doubt that they all could shoot him if they had to. But THEN? I think they'd all be afraid of him, but would they risk shooting it out with him if he didn't want to leave? Would someone be willing to shoot him in the back? I don't know, but I bet he'd get away with it unless Daryl stepped up to the plate (or if Andrea was doing guard duty while he was walking the perimeter...)
     
  17. raven n

    raven n Well-Known Member

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    True, but not before Shane inflicted some damage to the group. He also might have decided to pull a Merle or Gov type thing - like lure a few dozen Walkers & open the gate for them for being booted. He would have tried to kidnap Lori & maybe Carl before hand, but he would have had no problem trying to kill all the others in his rage - he was that far gone. I would have just shot him & been done with it.
     
  18. westwingnut

    westwingnut Well-Known Member

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    I can see Shane leaving the farm but then going back for Lori. I can also see Lori leaving the farm with Shane, especially if Carl were dead.
     
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  19. raven n

    raven n Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so. Shane had already proven himself a liar & Daryl discovered he'd murdered that kid. So no way would she'd come along willingly with Shane, especially if Carl had an 'accident' after Rick 'died'. He might kidnap her, but she would only pretend to 'be his' so no harm would come to her or the kids -And Shane would believer her too, because he WANTED to; which was why (in his mind) Rick had to die. He might also try to use Carl as a 'bargaining chip', or else the kid would have an 'accident', so Lori would be 'alone' again). Shane was fooling himself: Lori was NOT THAT stupid: She'd figure it out pretty fast & then give Shane an 'accident', of his own the first chance she got.
     
  20. The Wolf

    The Wolf Well-Known Member

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    I think your quote is correct [MENTION=5325]raven n[/MENTION]. Shane was a full blown psychopath before he was killed in season 2 and Lori wasn't a stupid woman. She would have recognized any weird story Shane would have concocted about a possible "accident" concerning Carl.
    I would have liked to have seen Lori be the one that blew away Shane instead of Rick killing him then Carl putting walker Shane down in season 2, it would have been poetic justice for when Shane almost raped Lori at the CDC.
    I always liked Lori, I never hated her the way most WD fans do, but I'm not you average Walking Dead fan.
     

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